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<!--quoteo(post=87476:date=Apr 9 2010, 01:59 PM:name=Destined)-->QUOTE (Destined @ Apr 9 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87469:date=Apr 9 2010, 11:49 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 9 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The minimum wage has never off-shored a fry cook, hospital orderly or hotel housekeeper.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if you mentioned it because I really refuse to read your novel, but doesn't hiring undocumented workers to do those jobs produce the same result as outsourcing? It's Americans losing jobs, same result.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the paragraph in the novel you didn't read:
"I'll skip the part of my response that describes the importance of undocumented workers to this G.O.P. utopia, and how hypocritical conservatives rail against them out of one side of their mouth to score political points with xenophobes while at the same time refusing to do anything that would undermine the benefits they harvest from having a cheap, fearful source of labor ever present."
It's a whole 'nother novel for another day.
The one thing GWB ever had right...and the one thing that pissed off his base, was that he wanted to approach this issue in a sensible manner.
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I think what's funny about this whole argument is that Anna's original point that started all this, I think, was that baseball players are paid what owners will pay them and that's based on the economy and what fans will spend to support the product. Yet baseball is one of the best examples of the power of the worker, of the union, to have a say and control over wages. Players got paid shit until they unionized, there simply wasn't much motivation for the owners to pay. I mean today there is a minimum salary for god's sake in MLB, what do you think a minimum wage is??
The minimum wage in the US is not unlike what the players union provides in baseball, the belief is that the whole working class, as represented by representative government, can have some small say in minimum standards that the free market can not insure. I agree totally that you have to strike that balance fairly, that either side (owners and workers) can go too far. But the notion that we can just let the "owners" dictate wages on their own isn't an American concept, and neither is a fully free market. America has always been a wonderful blend of different economic and social concepts, people need to realize that it's not one way and one way only and it never has been.
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Just read this. It satirizes my worst fears about online discourse:
http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1803025
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=87486:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:17 PM:name=MrSheps)-->QUOTE (MrSheps @ Apr 9 2010, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think what's funny about this whole argument is that Anna's original point that started all this, I think, was that baseball players are paid what owners will pay them and that's based on the economy and what fans will spend to support the product. Yet baseball is one of the best examples of the power of the worker, of the union, to have a say and control over wages. Players got paid shit until they unionized, there simply wasn't much motivation for the owners to pay. I mean today there is a minimum salary for god's sake in MLB, what do you think a minimum wage is??
The minimum wage in the US is not unlike what the players union provides in baseball, the belief is that the whole working class, as represented by representative government, can have some small say in minimum standards that the free market can not insure. I agree totally that you have to strike that balance fairly, that either side (owners and workers) can go too far. But the notion that we can just let the "owners" dictate wages on their own isn't an American concept, and neither is a fully free market. America has always been a wonderful blend of different economic and social concepts, people need to realize that it's not one way and one way only and it never has been.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
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<!--quoteo(post=87469:date=Apr 9 2010, 01:49 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 9 2010, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The minimum wage has never off-shored a fry cook, hospital orderly or hotel housekeeper.
I realize that all the economic consequences of a minimum wage are not cause for celebration but you can't re-distrubute wealth without it costing the rest of us <i>something</i>. I just don't feel entitled to cheap this or that at the cost of having the people that provide it to me living in poverty...or getting used up only to retire into poverty. Whatever it is, I'll pay a nickel more for it gladly, if it means someone sweeping the warehouse gets health benefits. I'd be delighted if the tax system provided incentives to management to kick in a nickel from their side of the equation too.
Entrusting social equity to the apostles of the free market has never increased the likelihood of a non-sharehlder (be that a worker, a customer, a resident near a factory...) getting a square deal.
I don't consider my view radical as much as I consider it enlightened self-interest. I don't want to live in fear of a desperate underclass.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to further this argument, but all that I was saying is that I <b>do</b> believe in a minimum wage, just that the way in which it is determined is more about politics than economics. Re-read what I posted. I didn't blame off-shoring all on the minimum wage, but to believe that it doesn't contribute to it, even in the slightest would be wrong as well.
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<!--quoteo(post=87488:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:18 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Apr 9 2010, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Just read this. It satirizes my worst fears about online discourse:
http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1803025<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny but it lacked a certain illiteracy.
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<!--quoteo(post=87486:date=Apr 9 2010, 12:17 PM:name=MrSheps)-->QUOTE (MrSheps @ Apr 9 2010, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think what's funny about this whole argument is that Anna's original point that started all this, I think, was that baseball players are paid what owners will pay them and that's based on the economy and what fans will spend to support the product. Yet baseball is one of the best examples of the power of the worker, of the union, to have a say and control over wages. Players got paid shit until they unionized, there simply wasn't much motivation for the owners to pay. I mean today there is a minimum salary for god's sake in MLB, what do you think a minimum wage is??
The minimum wage in the US is not unlike what the players union provides in baseball, the belief is that the whole working class, as represented by representative government, can have some small say in minimum standards that the free market can not insure. I agree totally that you have to strike that balance fairly, that either side (owners and workers) can go too far. But the notion that we can just let the "owners" dictate wages on their own isn't an American concept, and neither is a fully free market. America has always been a wonderful blend of different economic and social concepts, people need to realize that it's not one way and one way only and it never has been.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nicely put. Also, the minimum salary and arbitration has a second purpose, which is to not allow an overwhelming competitive advantage. Look at Lincecum for example, because most players with his age and experience are making roughly 600K-750K. That wouldn't be fair at all for the Giants to pay relatively nothing for the best pitcher in the game and yet the CC's, Beckett's and Zambrano's of the world are getting high dollar deals.
I hate my pretentious sounding username too.
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Do you realize that people out there are bleaching their anus's? I mean, why would you do that? The anus is supposes to be brown, right? Is a lighter anus more attractive? Do people who engage in anal sex on a regular basis prefer the bleached anus?
"Man, I was gonna buttfuck this chick the other night, but when i got an eyeful of her asshole, I couldn't believe the browness of it. Or the fecundity for that matter. I told her she needed to bleach that shit."
Seriously? I'm proud of my brown anus and I'm pretty sure my wife is too. Brown is down, white ain't right.
Wang.
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tom -- you make my brown eye blue.
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<!--quoteo(post=87501:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->tom -- you make my brown eye blue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black and blue when i get done with it....but never white. Cuz white ain't right.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=87483:date=Apr 9 2010, 12:14 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 9 2010, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87476:date=Apr 9 2010, 01:59 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Apr 9 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87469:date=Apr 9 2010, 11:49 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Apr 9 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The minimum wage has never off-shored a fry cook, hospital orderly or hotel housekeeper.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure if you mentioned it because I really refuse to read your novel, but doesn't hiring undocumented workers to do those jobs produce the same result as outsourcing? It's Americans losing jobs, same result.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here's the paragraph in the novel you didn't read:
"I'll skip the part of my response that describes the importance of undocumented workers to this G.O.P. utopia, and how hypocritical conservatives rail against them out of one side of their mouth to score political points with xenophobes while at the same time refusing to do anything that would undermine the benefits they harvest from having a cheap, fearful source of labor ever present."
It's a whole 'nother novel for another day.
The one thing GWB ever had right...and the one thing that pissed off his base, was that he wanted to approach this issue in a sensible manner.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, it is hypocritical. But at the same time, it's the name of the game. Capitalism strives on making the extra dollar, the cheapest workers are what enables that dollar to be earned. I agree with the importance of workers that fit the unskilled labour profile, and businesses love having them. All I ask for, and a lot of right wingers and moderates, is that the workers come here legally and are documented. It's not right how people get fucked over for waiting in line and doing things the right way. These "undocumented" people get free educations that isn't supported by their tax money, and it isn't fair to us, nor them. One of my best friends is illegal, and I can never go out and have a beer with him because he doesn't have an ID. It's not fair to him that he has to deal with that fear, and it's not fair to Tom and Shirely in Podunk, Iowa who got their Social Security stolen number by him. To start, amnesty is probably going to have to be the way to go as a sort of grandfather clause for these workers, but it needs to be fixed.
I hate my pretentious sounding username too.
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<!--quoteo(post=87504:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87501:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->tom -- you make my brown eye blue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black and blue when i get done with it....but never white. Cuz white ain't right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except in creampies.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"That was some of the saddest stuff I've ever read. Fuck cancer and AIDS, ignorance is the scourge of the land." - tom v
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<!--quoteo(post=87509:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM:name=biggz)-->QUOTE (biggz @ Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87504:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87501:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->tom -- you make my brown eye blue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black and blue when i get done with it....but never white. Cuz white ain't right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except in creampies.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cream pies are gross.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=87510:date=Apr 9 2010, 12:44 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 9 2010, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87509:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM:name=biggz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biggz @ Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87504:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87501:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->tom -- you make my brown eye blue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black and blue when i get done with it....but never white. Cuz white ain't right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except in creampies.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cream pies are gross.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prefer the swap?
I hate my pretentious sounding username too.
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<!--quoteo(post=87511:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:45 PM:name=Destined)-->QUOTE (Destined @ Apr 9 2010, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87510:date=Apr 9 2010, 12:44 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 9 2010, 12:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87509:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM:name=biggz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biggz @ Apr 9 2010, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87504:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 9 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=87501:date=Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 9 2010, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->tom -- you make my brown eye blue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Black and blue when i get done with it....but never white. Cuz white ain't right.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except in creampies.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cream pies are gross.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prefer the swap?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the swap is cool.
Wang.
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