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FYI, here is Stark's take on FA starters for this offseason:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->• 1. Cliff Lee: "To be honest, I'd like to make Lee No. 1 through 3 on this list, but I don't think that's what you have in mind."
• 2. Javier Vazquez: "An easy No. 2."
• 3. Jorge De La Rosa: "He's been pretty good since [the Rockies] straightened him out. If you're comparing left-handers, it's him and [Ted] Lilly, and he's got better stuff than Lilly."
• 4. Aaron Harang ($12.75 million team option or $2 million buyout): "I don't know exactly what to make of him, but I like the competitiveness. I'd take a chance on him on a short [i.e., two-year] deal."
• 5. Ted Lilly: "Some health issues, but I like him a lot. If he's healthy, he could be [No.] 3, 4 or 5 on the list. The last three guys are kind of in a bunch."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Doesnt look great.
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<!--quoteo(post=86996:date=Apr 8 2010, 01:59 PM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Apr 8 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I was basing that off his 4.34 ERA (before last start) the last year and a half.
That isnt a good number for a #1, #2, #3 started IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But no one is saying that Z has been great, or that he has been close to an ace during that period. What people are saying is that his track record is still very good long-term and that during the past 2 seasons he hasn't been healthy. I'm not as high on Z as I once was, but I am getting tired of all the constant talk of Z being a terrible player, just because he is crazy and doesn't fit the bill as a #1. Most of the expectations placed on him were too high to begin with.
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<!--quoteo(post=86998:date=Apr 8 2010, 03:07 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Apr 8 2010, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=86996:date=Apr 8 2010, 01:59 PM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Apr 8 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I was basing that off his 4.34 ERA (before last start) the last year and a half.
That isnt a good number for a #1, #2, #3 started IMO.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But no one is saying that Z has been great, or that he has been close to an ace during that period. What people are saying is that his track record is still very good long-term and that during the past 2 seasons he hasn't been healthy. I'm not as high on Z as I once was, but I am getting tired of all the constant talk of Z being a terrible player, just because he is crazy and doesn't fit the bill as a #1. Most of the expectations placed on him were too high to begin with.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A few years ago, I expected Z to be a true ace by now and to have won atleast 1 Cy Young.
Were those lofty expectations? Sure, but he seemed to be progressing that way.
Do I think that he is as bad as his stats the last year and half? No, but I still have to say that he's been a disappointment lately.
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I'm with Coach. I don't think it's very unreasonable to have high expectations for a guy who put up a 3.11 ERA as a 22 year old and a 2.75 ERA as a 23 year old.
Whatever the reason, whether it's the workload, injuries, his 5-cent head, or whatever else you want to say, I don't think you can deny that he's really nowhere near the same pitcher now that he was from '03-'05, and I doubt he ever will be again.
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Again, I'm not saying that I didn't expect more out of Z. Hell, I put higher expectations on him than was reasonable even as recently as 2008. As I recall, Z was in the running for the CY until his miserable August that year (12-4 2.76 ERA on August 3), and I attribute his brutal finish that season to injuries. He hasn't been the same since then. Look at even his 2009 on August 1 (7-4 3.35 ERA). Pretty decent. Again, from August on he sucked because of injuries and mental instability. All I am saying is that he hasn't been terrible the past 2 years. Shit has happened. If he can somehow stay healthy, I think Z is a fine pitcher.
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If I recall correctly, Zambrano is the third-highest paid pitcher in baseball, and he's lucky if he's still good enough to be a number two guy. He hasn't been great since about 2004, and he's getting worse with each year. I don't have a problem with having him on the staff; I do have a problem with grossly overpaying him to be average.
Of course, that's what we're doing with the majority of the roster.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->He hasn't been great since about 2004, and he's getting worse with each year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. It's not like he was in the top 5 in Cy Young voting in both 2006 and 2007 which both happened after 2004.
Oh wait.....
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=87007:date=Apr 8 2010, 12:30 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Apr 8 2010, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Again, I'm not saying that I didn't expect more out of Z. Hell, I put higher expectations on him than was reasonable even as recently as 2008. As I recall, Z was in the running for the CY until his miserable August that year (12-4 2.76 ERA on August 3), and I attribute his brutal finish that season to injuries. He hasn't been the same since then. Look at even his 2009 on August 1 (7-4 3.35 ERA). Pretty decent. Again, from August on he sucked because of injuries and mental instability. All I am saying is that he hasn't been terrible the past 2 years. Shit has happened. If he can somehow stay healthy, I think Z is a fine pitcher.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree.
I hate my pretentious sounding username too.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Teddy will save us.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's like trading for an All-Star.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'm with Coach. I don't think it's very unreasonable to have high expectations for a guy who put up a 3.11 ERA as a 22 year old and a 2.75 ERA as a 23 year old.
Whatever the reason, whether it's the workload, injuries, his 5-cent head, or whatever else you want to say, I don't think you can deny that he's really nowhere near the same pitcher now that he was from '03-'05, and I doubt he ever will be again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you ever wonder if Z and Prior were sharing the bottles of the clear and the cream?
Was it Roid Rage on the Gatorade Machine??
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
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<!--quoteo(post=87029:date=Apr 8 2010, 05:23 PM:name=MW4)-->QUOTE (MW4 @ Apr 8 2010, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Teddy will save us.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's like trading for an All-Star.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An All Star that just had shoulder surgery.
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<!--quoteo(post=87019:date=Apr 8 2010, 04:06 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 8 2010, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->He hasn't been great since about 2004, and he's getting worse with each year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. It's not like he was in the top 5 in Cy Young voting in both 2006 and 2007 which both happened after 2004.
Oh wait.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Voters like wins, as in his 18 in 2007. His 3.95 ERA that year really didn't make him worthy of serious consideration, and was the worst of his career.
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Z has definitely declined in terms of performance - not really any way to debate the numbers on that one.
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Until Zambrano can consistently have the same arm slot, game in, game out, he's gonna continue to alternate between ass fungus and brillance.
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this whole argument started about how skewed Kap's argument was and nobody put it better than rok...he hand picked the stats to prove his negative point which means that in reality there's no way he's as bad as Kaps making it sound.
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<!--quoteo(post=87019:date=Apr 8 2010, 04:06 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 8 2010, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->He hasn't been great since about 2004, and he's getting worse with each year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. It's not like he was in the top 5 in Cy Young voting in both 2006 and 2007 which both happened after 2004.
Oh wait.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Take a look at the numbers. They definitely don't deserve Cy Young consideration.
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