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<!--quoteo(post=91735:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:04 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 21 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91733:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:02 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Apr 21 2010, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91731:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dumbest fucking thing we've done in years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this doesn't get Lou fired when it blows up in his face, then I give up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you honestly think another manager would be winning with the players we have performing the way they have been?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we had a sane manager (this is the roster than Lou wanted so you cannot separate him from Hendry), we most likely would not have this mediocre, overpaid roster. Lou is out of his mind. Any way you look at it, this is a desperation move. It still pisses me off several hours after it was announced. We downgraded the rotation, which is way more valuable to a team than the pen. The effect on the bullpen is yet to be determined. Even if this is short term, which no one is claiming will be the case, it is too early to gamble on this level. Is Z really the obvious candidate for such a drastic role change? Only an insane old man who has no clue how to manage a team would do something like this. Just a terrible idea. What is the real upside here? Yay, we COULD have a great setup man. Is that the #1 problem that plagues this team? Not even close. The risks far outweigh the return, so you shouldn't even think of doing this, not with someone with Z's track record, and not when you had other options. Only a retarded organization would demote Z to the pen over two question marks like Silva/Gorzelanny, and I don't care how well they have been pitching lately. We've seen pitchers overachieve this early in the season only to revert to shit eventually. Marquis comes to mind, and even he had a better track record than Silva/Gorzelanny, yet we never thought of demoting him to a setup role. Bottom line, it is WAY too early to be this desperate.
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<!--quoteo(post=91972:date=Apr 21 2010, 09:26 PM:name=MrSheps)-->QUOTE (MrSheps @ Apr 21 2010, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Apologies if this is already in this thread, I assume it is. But how much does this move piss off Z's fantasy owners? Crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Damn I have him, hadn't thought about that... Now I'm pissed.
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Dear Evan and Butch, I think I need a show.
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I honestly can't believe anyone is defending this.
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<!--quoteo(post=91982:date=Apr 21 2010, 10:21 PM:name=AlexV)-->QUOTE (AlexV @ Apr 21 2010, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dear Evan and Butch, I think I need a show.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And no, not that kind of show...
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According to Boers and Bernstein (whom I have serious issues with) they said that the best reliever in baseball last year's value is equivalent to a mediocre 3rd starter to 4th starter. So if Z is lights out as a reliever he is still only being valued as a Gorz or Silva. The replacement level pitcher for Zambrano is no one we have in the rotation.
Zambrano will always be a frustrating pitcher. He pitches to contact sometimes and pitches to K sometimes. His career BABIP against is around .270. His career whip is around 1.3. He'll walk guys, he'll give up a few hits, he'll "beat himself", but he'll also be lights out. His career quality start % is 62 (for comparison's sake, from 21 to Z's current age Halladay had a career 64% in QS.) A quality start gives a team a 75% change of winning a game. Zambrano is crazy, emotional and paid a lot. But any given day start he can be the best pitcher in baseball. You don't take a guy with that potential out to pitch a third of his usual innings.
You want your best hitters to get the most at bats in a season. Wouldn't you want your best pitchers to pitch the most innings as well?
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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<!--quoteo(post=91979:date=Apr 21 2010, 11:01 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Apr 21 2010, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91735:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:04 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Apr 21 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91733:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:02 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Apr 21 2010, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91731:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dumbest fucking thing we've done in years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this doesn't get Lou fired when it blows up in his face, then I give up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you honestly think another manager would be winning with the players we have performing the way they have been?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we had a sane manager (this is the roster than Lou wanted so you cannot separate him from Hendry), we most likely would not have this mediocre, overpaid roster. Lou is out of his mind. Any way you look at it, this is a desperation move. It still pisses me off several hours after it was announced. We downgraded the rotation, which is way more valuable to a team than the pen. The effect on the bullpen is yet to be determined. Even if this is short term, which no one is claiming will be the case, it is too early to gamble on this level. Is Z really the obvious candidate for such a drastic role change? Only an insane old man who has no clue how to manage a team would do something like this. Just a terrible idea. What is the real upside here? Yay, we COULD have a great setup man. Is that the #1 problem that plagues this team? Not even close. The risks far outweigh the return, so you shouldn't even think of doing this, not with someone with Z's track record, and not when you had other options. Only a retarded organization would demote Z to the pen over two question marks like Silva/Gorzelanny, and I don't care how well they have been pitching lately. We've seen pitchers overachieve this early in the season only to revert to shit eventually. Marquis comes to mind, and even he had a better track record than Silva/Gorzelanny, yet we never thought of demoting him to a setup role. Bottom line, it is WAY too early to be this desperate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zambrano said it was temporary.
And we haven't downgraded the rotation until either Silva or Gorzelany start shitting the bed. Even then we can only assume that Z would be good Z and not opening day Z. If and when Gorz and/or Silva start shitting the bed, they move Zambrano back to the rotation. And all of this rampant pant shitting will have been for naught.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=91868:date=Apr 21 2010, 07:00 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 21 2010, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Well, I just read every response in this thread and there were many many great ones. The one thing that I keep coming back to though is that this is Carlos Zambrano. Right? I just don't understand how you put an all star, no hitting, $91 mil making, 6 time opening day starting, 200 inning throwing, pitcher who I believe has never had an ERA over 4, into the bullpen. I just can't get my mind around that.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that's pretty much where I'm at. I'm shocked that Z is ok with it.
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look at it this way, when we get Z back in the rotation it will be like trading...nevermind.
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You know what Lou did with this move? He put the dog in a bathtub. That's what he did.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=91987:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:00 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 22 2010, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91979:date=Apr 21 2010, 11:01 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Apr 21 2010, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91735:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:04 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Apr 21 2010, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91733:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:02 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Apr 21 2010, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91731:date=Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Apr 21 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Dumbest fucking thing we've done in years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If this doesn't get Lou fired when it blows up in his face, then I give up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you honestly think another manager would be winning with the players we have performing the way they have been?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If we had a sane manager (this is the roster than Lou wanted so you cannot separate him from Hendry), we most likely would not have this mediocre, overpaid roster. Lou is out of his mind. Any way you look at it, this is a desperation move. It still pisses me off several hours after it was announced. We downgraded the rotation, which is way more valuable to a team than the pen. The effect on the bullpen is yet to be determined. Even if this is short term, which no one is claiming will be the case, it is too early to gamble on this level. Is Z really the obvious candidate for such a drastic role change? Only an insane old man who has no clue how to manage a team would do something like this. Just a terrible idea. What is the real upside here? Yay, we COULD have a great setup man. Is that the #1 problem that plagues this team? Not even close. The risks far outweigh the return, so you shouldn't even think of doing this, not with someone with Z's track record, and not when you had other options. Only a retarded organization would demote Z to the pen over two question marks like Silva/Gorzelanny, and I don't care how well they have been pitching lately. We've seen pitchers overachieve this early in the season only to revert to shit eventually. Marquis comes to mind, and even he had a better track record than Silva/Gorzelanny, yet we never thought of demoting him to a setup role. Bottom line, it is WAY too early to be this desperate.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zambrano said it was temporary.
And we haven't downgraded the rotation until either Silva or Gorzelany start shitting the bed. Even then we can only assume that Z would be good Z and not opening day Z. If and when Gorz and/or Silva start shitting the bed, they move Zambrano back to the rotation. And all of this rampant pant shitting will have been for naught.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but this totally downgrades the rotation. Zambrano is a better pitcher than Silva or Gorvalany, every time one of them takes the mound Zambrano is more likely to pitch well than either of those two, that has been proven throughout their careers. I don't see the point in throwing out a mediocre pitcher on the hopes that he can pitch a decent game as opposed to throwing out an All-Star pitcher and hoping he can pitch a shutout.
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<!--quoteo(post=91986:date=Apr 22 2010, 12:43 AM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Apr 22 2010, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->According to Boers and Bernstein (whom I have serious issues with) they said that the best reliever in baseball last year's value is equivalent to a mediocre 3rd starter to 4th starter. So if Z is lights out as a reliever he is still only being valued as a Gorz or Silva. The replacement level pitcher for Zambrano is no one we have in the rotation.
Zambrano will always be a frustrating pitcher. He pitches to contact sometimes and pitches to K sometimes. His career BABIP against is around .270. His career whip is around 1.3. He'll walk guys, he'll give up a few hits, he'll "beat himself", but he'll also be lights out. His career quality start % is 62 (for comparison's sake, from 21 to Z's current age Halladay had a career 64% in QS.) A quality start gives a team a 75% change of winning a game. Zambrano is crazy, emotional and paid a lot. But any given day start he can be the best pitcher in baseball. You don't take a guy with that potential out to pitch a third of his usual innings.
You want your best hitters to get the most at bats in a season. Wouldn't you want your best pitchers to pitch the most innings as well?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everything you just said, x10. Perfect.
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Even if it is indeed temporary (which Lou hasn't said is the case), it is still a dumb idea. One of the dumbest I have ever seen in baseball. I'm glad that the Cubs could oblige.
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I was listening to the Score this morning and a caller speculated that this move may be a way for the cubs to get Zambrano to wave his no-trade clause so that they can trade him. Thoughts?
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=92026:date=Apr 22 2010, 08:24 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Apr 22 2010, 08:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I was listening to the Score this morning and a caller speculated that this move may be a way for the cubs to get Zambrano to wave his no-trade clause so that they can trade him. Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that is the intent, which I don't believe it is, then we just lowered Z's trade value with this demotion. Wait a minute, that is actually typical of what the Cubs do with their players.
I still don't buy it though.
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