Fire Lou

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=99346:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:04 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jun 1 2010, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99342:date=Jun 1 2010, 12:50 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 1 2010, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I believe a bad manager can have a far greater impact (in a negative way, obviously) than a good manager can have (in a positive way).

All I ask from my manager is they put the team in the best position possible to win and not make idiotic decisions. Lou has been making some shockingly bad decisions this season. Of course -- if Lee and Ramirez were hitting, it would mask some of those decisions. But with our offense, there is a much smaller margin of error and Lou's mistakes get magnified.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also can't separate Lou from Hendry as far as team construction is concerned. The roster is absolutely underperforming in certain areas, but this is also the team that Lou wanted. He has wanted some really strange things since the 2008 playoffs, and has made several knee-jerk reactions (obsession with handedness being one thing that jumps out as well as relying on an unproven bullpen this season) and we are paying much of this still. The roster is very inflexible at this point, so I will admit that changing managers won't solve our problems, but management deserves most of the blame for putting this team together. I have a hard time believing that even if Lee and ARam were performing up to their career averages, this team would be that much better though. It seems that right now, the entire team is slumping, not just our #3 and #4 hitters, and it was unrealistic to expect Theriot/Soriano/Soto/Fukudome/Byrd to be hitting in the mid .300s as they were through the first month of the season. Things evened out, as should have been expected, but I have no idea how much better this team can become even if players do what is reasonably expected.
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Rok, we've lost 21 games in which we scored 3 runs or less. We've lost at least 11 games by 1 run. You don't think a healthy/productive Ramirez and Lee would change that?

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=99348:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:24 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99346:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:04 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jun 1 2010, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99342:date=Jun 1 2010, 12:50 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 1 2010, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I believe a bad manager can have a far greater impact (in a negative way, obviously) than a good manager can have (in a positive way).

All I ask from my manager is they put the team in the best position possible to win and not make idiotic decisions. Lou has been making some shockingly bad decisions this season. Of course -- if Lee and Ramirez were hitting, it would mask some of those decisions. But with our offense, there is a much smaller margin of error and Lou's mistakes get magnified.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also can't separate Lou from Hendry as far as team construction is concerned. The roster is absolutely underperforming in certain areas, but this is also the team that Lou wanted. He has wanted some really strange things since the 2008 playoffs, and has made several knee-jerk reactions (obsession with handedness being one thing that jumps out as well as relying on an unproven bullpen this season) and we are paying much of this still. The roster is very inflexible at this point, so I will admit that changing managers won't solve our problems, but management deserves most of the blame for putting this team together. I have a hard time believing that even if Lee and ARam were performing up to their career averages, this team would be that much better though. It seems that right now, the entire team is slumping, not just our #3 and #4 hitters, and it was unrealistic to expect Theriot/Soriano/Soto/Fukudome/Byrd to be hitting in the mid .300s as they were through the first month of the season. Things evened out, as should have been expected, but I have no idea how much better this team can become even if players do what is reasonably expected.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Rok, we've lost 21 games in which we scored 3 runs or less. We've lost at least 11 games by 1 run. You don't think a healthy/productive Ramirez and Lee would change that?
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I'm sure it would change things to some degree, but given the way the rest of the offense has performed over the past couple of weeks or even the past month, I'm not so sure it would matter as much as we assume it would.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--> That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about how Ruby feels, but I had the exact opposite thoughts on Baker that Ruby does towards Lou: I <b>liked</b> Dusty as a person, I liked him as a man, I enjoyed his humor, I even liked the little wristbands. I met him after the SOITOW 2006 game, and he was charming, personable, and charismatic. He'd make the greatest 1st base coach of all time.

I just didn't want him pulling the reins of my favorite team. Or anywhere near a lineup card.
I'm starting to feel that way about Lou.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=99345:date=Jun 1 2010, 01:59 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 01:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99342:date=Jun 1 2010, 12:50 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 1 2010, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I believe a bad manager can have a far greater impact (in a negative way, obviously) than a good manager can have (in a positive way).

All I ask from my manager is they put the team in the best position possible to win and not make idiotic decisions. Lou has been making some shockingly bad decisions this season. Of course -- if Lee and Ramirez were hitting, it would mask some of those decisions. But with our offense, there is a much smaller margin of error and Lou's mistakes get magnified.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


See, that's sort of my point. Your idea of idiotic decisions, is, by default, entirely subjective. You'll note, I'm not saying your view of those decisions is wrong, just that it's YOUR view. Lou has reason for what he does. Reasons you might know, reasons you might not know. For example:

Look back, I don't know if it's this thread or not. People are terribly upset that Lou hasn't found a way to work Colvin into the lineup. Forget for a moment that the 3 OF's we have really haven't given him a reason to work Colvin into the lineup, just realize that many on this board this Lou is an idiot for not putting him in. Now, in the SAME thread, someone calls Lou out for pinch hitting for Soto in the 9th inning of a 1 run ball game. They (logically) explain how Lou is an idiot for taking out a guy with a good OBP when we badly need baserunners. So Lou is an idiot for taking out Soto. Unsaid in the thread is that Lou pinch hit a lefty to face a right handed pitcher. Now if he hadn't done that, and Soto made an out, I am certain many would feel Lou was an idiot for not pinch hitting a lefty. But more than that, the lefty he used off the bench? Tyler Colvin. So in the same thread, Lou was an idiot for NOT using Colvin and was an idiot FOR using Colvin. The only way he would not have been an idiot was if the players had come through, and won the game. At which time exactly ZERO guys on this board would credit Lou for making the right decisions. Which goes back to my original argument. By the way, I'm not criticizing anyone for making arguments about Colvin one way or another. They were logical arguments. It's just that essentially the manager is blamed when players don't perform, and gets no credit when they do perform. The pinch hitter who strikes out is always the wrong guy. The reliever who lets up the winning run is always the wrong reliever. It's the nature of fandom.
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I think I know exactly which game you're talking about, and there's nothing subjective about how poorly Lou managed the late innings of the game. Let me outline it for you.

- May 20 vs. the Phillies.

- Top of the 7th:
- Lee homers to bring the Cubs within 2 runs (CHC 2, PHI 4)
- Byrd grounds out
- Soriano walks
- Fontenot singles, Soriano to 2nd
- Castro singles, bases loaded
<b>*offensive substitution: PINCH HITTER TYLER COLVIN REPLACES KOYIE HILL*</b>

- Bottom of the 8th:
- Jeff Stevens is pitching -- Polanco grounds out.
<b>*with Utley, Howard, Rollins, and Ibanez due up: JOHN GRABOW REPLACES JEFF STEVENS*</b>

- Top of the 9th:
- Soriano hit by pitch
- Fontenot singles, Soriano to 3rd
- Castro strikes out
<b>*offensive substitution: PINCH HITTER ARAMIS RAMIREZ REPLACES JOHN GRABOW*</b>

OK. Without following each of the bolded managerial decisions with the results of each of those decisions, let's take a look at the problems here:

- In the 7th, Lou pinch hit Colvin for Hill <b>when Soto would have to replace Hill anyway.</b> Why not just pinch hit Soto? It burns a pinch-hitter for absolutely no reason at all.

- In the 8th inning, Lou brings <b>OUR WORST POSSIBLE RELIEF PITCHER in to face the fattest part of the Phillies' batting order.</b> Keep in mind, Grabow *does not* pitch more effectively to LHB, so you can't even use the "handedness" argument here.

- In the 9th inning, Lou had to bring in Aramis in a crucial moment in the game. It was really his only option. EXCEPT...if he didn't burn Colvin in the 7th for no reason, he could have used him here -- instead of Aramis.

Here's a game that was completely winnable. We ended up losing it by one run -- and Lou cost us the game. There is nothing subjective about that statement, either. The loss was a direct result of piss-poor managing.

[kbwsb]

I enjoyed that, Butch, and you could do that for any number of games.

BTW, when he was a young player ( a Rookie-of-the-Year, IIRC) he was referred to by announcers as "Lou Peen-yuh."

Anyone know why he changed the pronunciation?

[BT]

It's not the game I was talking about, but it's actually a good example. I could go over the whole post, but my main problems:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 7th, Lou pinch hit Colvin for Hill when Soto would have to replace Hill anyway. Why not just pinch hit Soto? It burns a pinch-hitter for absolutely no reason at all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Of course there was a reason to pinch hit Colvin. Because he is left handed and Soto isn't. I'm not saying it was the best idea, or the right idea, but to claim it was utterly pointless is beyond unfair. A vast majority of major league managers, like it or not, would have done the exact same thing.


<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 9th inning, Lou had to bring in Aramis in a crucial moment in the game. It was really his only option. EXCEPT...if he didn't burn Colvin in the 7th for no reason, he could have used him here -- instead of Aramis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Unless I am reading the box score wrong, he "burned" Colvin at possibly the most crucial play of the entire game. Bases loaded, one out. He got a run in. Are you seriously suggesting that the "smart" thing to do would have been to let Koyie fucking Hill bat in that situation, on the off chance that Lou might need Colvin to pinch hit in the 9th? Seriously?

And my favorite:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 8th inning, Lou brings OUR WORST POSSIBLE RELIEF PITCHER in to face the fattest part of the Phillies' batting order. Keep in mind, Grabow *does not* pitch more effectively to LHB, so you can't even use the "handedness" argument here.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

WRONG. I absolutely can use the handedness thing here. Other than Utley (who is a lefty, I might add), the other 3 guys are DECISIVELY worse against lefties than righties. Ibanez OPS is 140 lower against lefties. Howard's is 170 points lower. Rollins sample size is too small to make a generalization, but it's 600 points lower than against Righties. This is the point I tried to make earlier in the year. The "handedness" argument doesn't just apply to our guy. It may apply to the guy he's facing as well.

More to the point, who was he supposed to bring in? Again, this was a game that everyone bitched and moaned, wondering why Marshall wasn't brought in. What we didn't know, what Lou DID know, was that Marmol couldn't pitch that day. He was out. So while the message boards clamored for Marshall, because we all know more than Lou, Marshall was being saved to close. Russel had pitched. Grabow was the only lefty in the pen since Marshall was being saved for later. Are you arguing we should have brought in a right to face 3 tough lefties and Rollins? If so, who is this magical righty? If Lou had brought him in, and the righty had been clobbered by a succession of lefties, what are the chances fans would have been OK with that move?

THIS is my point Butch. You come out with decisions that you claim are unequivocally proof that Lou did the "wrong" thing. You argue that the examples are subjective proof. I've given you reasons why he did what he did. They are clearly arguable. They might not be the "right" decisions, but they weren't made by throwing darts at a dart board. They were made with specific FACTS in mind. Another manager may have decided to give more weight to other facts, but the moves are at the very least arguable.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=99364:date=Jun 1 2010, 04:15 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->It's not the game I was talking about, but it's actually a good example. I could go over the whole post, but my main problems:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 7th, Lou pinch hit Colvin for Hill when Soto would have to replace Hill anyway. Why not just pinch hit Soto? It burns a pinch-hitter for absolutely no reason at all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Of course there was a reason to pinch hit Colvin. Because he is left handed and Soto isn't. I'm not saying it was the best idea, or the right idea, but to claim it was utterly pointless is beyond unfair. A vast majority of major league managers, like it or not, would have done the exact same thing.


<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 9th inning, Lou had to bring in Aramis in a crucial moment in the game. It was really his only option. EXCEPT...if he didn't burn Colvin in the 7th for no reason, he could have used him here -- instead of Aramis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Unless I am reading the box score wrong, he "burned" Colvin at possibly the most crucial play of the entire game. Bases loaded, one out. He got a run in. Are you seriously suggesting that the "smart" thing to do would have been to let Koyie fucking Hill bat in that situation, on the off chance that Lou might need Colvin to pinch hit in the 9th? Seriously?

And my favorite:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 8th inning, Lou brings OUR WORST POSSIBLE RELIEF PITCHER in to face the fattest part of the Phillies' batting order. Keep in mind, Grabow *does not* pitch more effectively to LHB, so you can't even use the "handedness" argument here.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

WRONG. I absolutely can use the handedness thing here. Other than Utley (who is a lefty, I might add), the other 3 guys are DECISIVELY worse against lefties than righties. Ibanez OPS is 140 lower against lefties. Howard's is 170 points lower. Rollins sample size is too small to make a generalization, but it's 600 points lower than against Righties. This is the point I tried to make earlier in the year. The "handedness" argument doesn't just apply to our guy. It may apply to the guy he's facing as well.

More to the point, who was he supposed to bring in? Again, this was a game that everyone bitched and moaned, wondering why Marshall wasn't brought in. What we didn't know, what Lou DID know, was that Marmol couldn't pitch that day. He was out. So while the message boards clamored for Marshall, because we all know more than Lou, Marshall was being saved to close. Russel had pitched. Grabow was the only lefty in the pen since Marshall was being saved for later. Are you arguing we should have brought in a right to face 3 tough lefties and Rollins? If so, who is this magical righty? If Lou had brought him in, and the righty had been clobbered by a succession of lefties, what are the chances fans would have been OK with that move?

THIS is my point Butch. You come out with decisions that you claim are unequivocally proof that Lou did the "wrong" thing. You argue that the examples are subjective proof. I've given you reasons why he did what he did. They are clearly arguable. They might not be the "right" decisions, but they weren't made by throwing darts at a dart board. They were made with specific FACTS in mind. Another manager may have decided to give more weight to other facts, but the moves are at the very least arguable.
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Sorry, BT -- just because you <i>can</i> argue another side doesn't mean that they are good arguments.

Pinch hitting Colvin for Hill in that situation was stupid because he essentially used two players for one situation. He had to substitute Soto for Hill anyway. Just pinch hit Soto. Then Colvin is still on the bench in case you need him later. And, guess what? We needed him later. Joe Blanton was on the hill -- and if Lou took a moment to look up some stats, he would have found that there is hardly a difference in his splits against hitters on both sides of the plate. In fact, he's slightly more effective against LHB. So, again, the handedness argument doesn't hold water in this situation.

You can argue that bringing Colvin to the plate in that spot was a good decision, but you would be wrong. There's nothing subjective about it.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->More to the point, who was he supposed to bring in?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fucking ANYONE. Anyone other than Grabow. Pick a fan out of the fucking stands. I would have been OK with any pitcher in that spot other than Grabow. Name a pitcher on our roster, and I would have been happier with that decision. Despite a whole lot of evidence, everyone on the planet knows that Grabow can't pitch worth a damn. Except Lou. And what does that tell you about Lou?

Grabow should only be used for mop-up or in meaningless situations -- he honestly doesn't even belong in the Majors. If he was LITERALLY the ONLY option out of the pen, then fine. But I don't think that was the case.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Are you seriously suggesting that the "smart" thing to do would have been to let Koyie fucking Hill bat in that situation, on the off chance that Lou might need Colvin to pinch hit in the 9th? Seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope -- I didn't suggest that. I suggested bringing Soto in to pinch hit for Hill, since Soto would have to come in anyway. That wasn't clear?

You can continue to bring up "reasons" for Lou to make the decisions he made. Unfortunately, they're the reasons of a senile old man who doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was predictable and ran his pitchers into the ground. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Lou being a bumbling drunk though.

[dk123]

<!--quoteo(post=99366:date=Jun 1 2010, 04:45 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 1 2010, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99364:date=Jun 1 2010, 04:15 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->It's not the game I was talking about, but it's actually a good example. I could go over the whole post, but my main problems:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 7th, Lou pinch hit Colvin for Hill when Soto would have to replace Hill anyway. Why not just pinch hit Soto? It burns a pinch-hitter for absolutely no reason at all.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Of course there was a reason to pinch hit Colvin. Because he is left handed and Soto isn't. I'm not saying it was the best idea, or the right idea, but to claim it was utterly pointless is beyond unfair. A vast majority of major league managers, like it or not, would have done the exact same thing.


<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 9th inning, Lou had to bring in Aramis in a crucial moment in the game. It was really his only option. EXCEPT...if he didn't burn Colvin in the 7th for no reason, he could have used him here -- instead of Aramis.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Unless I am reading the box score wrong, he "burned" Colvin at possibly the most crucial play of the entire game. Bases loaded, one out. He got a run in. Are you seriously suggesting that the "smart" thing to do would have been to let Koyie fucking Hill bat in that situation, on the off chance that Lou might need Colvin to pinch hit in the 9th? Seriously?

And my favorite:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->- In the 8th inning, Lou brings OUR WORST POSSIBLE RELIEF PITCHER in to face the fattest part of the Phillies' batting order. Keep in mind, Grabow *does not* pitch more effectively to LHB, so you can't even use the "handedness" argument here.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

WRONG. I absolutely can use the handedness thing here. Other than Utley (who is a lefty, I might add), the other 3 guys are DECISIVELY worse against lefties than righties. Ibanez OPS is 140 lower against lefties. Howard's is 170 points lower. Rollins sample size is too small to make a generalization, but it's 600 points lower than against Righties. This is the point I tried to make earlier in the year. The "handedness" argument doesn't just apply to our guy. It may apply to the guy he's facing as well.

More to the point, who was he supposed to bring in? Again, this was a game that everyone bitched and moaned, wondering why Marshall wasn't brought in. What we didn't know, what Lou DID know, was that Marmol couldn't pitch that day. He was out. So while the message boards clamored for Marshall, because we all know more than Lou, Marshall was being saved to close. Russel had pitched. Grabow was the only lefty in the pen since Marshall was being saved for later. Are you arguing we should have brought in a right to face 3 tough lefties and Rollins? If so, who is this magical righty? If Lou had brought him in, and the righty had been clobbered by a succession of lefties, what are the chances fans would have been OK with that move?

THIS is my point Butch. You come out with decisions that you claim are unequivocally proof that Lou did the "wrong" thing. You argue that the examples are subjective proof. I've given you reasons why he did what he did. They are clearly arguable. They might not be the "right" decisions, but they weren't made by throwing darts at a dart board. They were made with specific FACTS in mind. Another manager may have decided to give more weight to other facts, but the moves are at the very least arguable.
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Sorry, BT -- just because you <i>can</i> argue another side doesn't mean that they are good arguments.

Pinch hitting Colvin for Hill in that situation was stupid because he essentially used two players for one situation. He had to substitute Soto for Hill anyway. Just pinch hit Soto. Then Colvin is still on the bench in case you need him later. And, guess what? We needed him later. Joe Blanton was on the hill -- and if Lou took a moment to look up some stats, he would have found that there is hardly a difference in his splits against hitters on both sides of the plate. In fact, he's slightly more effective against LHB. So, again, the handedness argument doesn't hold water in this situation.

You can argue that bringing Colvin to the plate in that spot was a good decision, but you would be wrong. There's nothing subjective about it.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->More to the point, who was he supposed to bring in?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fucking ANYONE. Anyone other than Grabow. Pick a fan out of the fucking stands. I would have been OK with any pitcher in that spot other than Grabow. Name a pitcher on our roster, and I would have been happier with that decision. Despite a whole lot of evidence, everyone on the planet knows that Grabow can't pitch worth a damn. Except Lou. And what does that tell you about Lou?

Grabow should only be used for mop-up or in meaningless situations -- he honestly doesn't even belong in the Majors. If he was LITERALLY the ONLY option out of the pen, then fine. But I don't think that was the case.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Are you seriously suggesting that the "smart" thing to do would have been to let Koyie fucking Hill bat in that situation, on the off chance that Lou might need Colvin to pinch hit in the 9th? Seriously?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope -- I didn't suggest that. I suggested bringing Soto in to pinch hit for Hill, since Soto would have to come in anyway. That wasn't clear?

You can continue to bring up "reasons" for Lou to make the decisions he made. Unfortunately, they're the reasons of a senile old man who doesn't know what the fuck he's doing.
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Zingaroo!

Seriously though, I'm not sure how you can argue that the managing cost us the game. It's not like we were winning by 5 runs and he left Grabow in there til the score was tied or something. It's possible that if he had done things differently, we win, but it's far from a sure thing.

I keep coming back to this, but when the offense is as bad as it has been, it makes the managing and the pen sort of irrelevant. The pen would look a whole lot better if the offense could actually do something.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99373:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was predictable and ran his pitchers into the ground. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Lou being a bumbling drunk though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What were your thoughts on Baylor?

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=99375:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99373:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was predictable and ran his pitchers into the ground. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Lou being a bumbling drunk though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What were your thoughts on Baylor?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He had very little to work with. There were also 2 other managers in between Baylor and Baker.

[Runnys]

Fire the whole fucking team!