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Coach · 07-13-2010, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (BT @ Jul 13 2010, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2010, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Don't sweat it, BT -- I won't tell you that you've never lost an SOI argument. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

When did that become a BAD thing?
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When you lose but still think you won?

veryzer · 07-13-2010, 01:39 PM

QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 13 2010, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 13 2010, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2010, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Don't sweat it, BT -- I won't tell you that you've never lost an SOI argument. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]

When did that become a BAD thing?
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When you lose but still think you won?
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But BT really doesn't lose. I guarantee you that if came on here and argued that James really did sign with the Bulls, by the end of the argument, I'd believe him, even though i know it's not true.

That's why I want to keep Hendry and Lou. I can't win. No one can.

willis · 07-13-2010, 02:10 PM

QUOTE (jstraw @ Jul 13 2010, 11:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 13 2010, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>I'm not as high on Joe these days as I was a few years ago, but I'd welcome him for sure. That said, he'd be a fool to leave NY.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cu...gordo13.article

I dunno if he'd be a fool. He's got money, he probably likes new challenges. This job would pay well. He may be sick of babysitting superstar prima donnas. The job might be all kinds of attractive to him.
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He did what he was asked to do in NY, win a title, he has done well there and is doing well again this year. If he likes a challenge and wants to mold a younger team (if that is indeed the direction) then yeah, this would be attractive to him. Build young WITH a ton of resources to make some good moves. But then again, he is young and succesful managing in a winning atmosphere, would he really want to put himself through the torture of being a Cub Manager? I would love him and accept him with great joy and open arms, but I think the world would question his sanity if he moved from NY to the north side and this debacle.

Brock · 07-13-2010, 03:53 PM

QUOTE (BT @ Jul 13 2010, 09:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE I don't think anyone has ever in the history of SOI won an argument with you.

You know, I'm getting pretty tired of people treating the fact that I actually back my arguments up with facts, and stick to my guns, as some sort of character flaw. News flash. that is what you are supposed to do on a message board. If you've got a counter argument, make it. Simply saying "no one has ever won an argument with you" is a fucking cop out, as it is utterly meaningless.

QUOTE And I don't really care that much to look it up right now, but I have an inkling that Soto "playing in 80% of the games" includes a significant number of games where: 1) Hill started the game and/or 2. Soto was used as a pinch hitter and/or late inning replacement

I'll save you the 12 seconds it took me to look this up. There were a grand total of 6 games in which Soto batted one or fewer times.

QUOTE I will throw one more thing out at you: Soto is 15th in MLB among catchers in total plate appearances. For me, if I have a guy that is out-hitting every single catcher in baseball other than Miguel Olivo, I'd like to see him get as many at bats as physically possible, especially when my backup catcher is one of the worst hitters in baseball.

That's fine. I've already explained that most of Soto's missed time was at the beginning of the season, when Soto was coming off a particularly bad year, and during the middle of the season when he was slumping badly. Every other part of the year, while he was batting well, his time off was fairly routine for a catcher. Let's see what his numbers end up being at the end of the year.

In the meantime you can continue to argue points that I haven't made, if you like. Lance specifically asked if anyone could justify Soto not playing. I did that. You countered by arguing that he is batting in the wrong spot, that Theriot is batting too much, in the wrong spot, and generally acting as if I'm arguing Lou shouldn't be fired. I'm arguing that people who are calling for Lou's head because of his use of Soto aren't actually looking at the facts.
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I'm calling for Lou's head for many things; this and the Theriot debacle are two of them. And what facts am I not looking at? Soto being 15th among catchers in plate appearances isn't a good enough fact? Soto being 2nd in all of the NL in OBP (as of a couple of days ago at least) isn't a good enough fact? What facts would you like me to look at?

Kid · 07-13-2010, 05:51 PM

QUOTE ANAHEIM, Calif. -- It's a job he coveted only 3½ years ago. About the time Lou Piniella was knocking him out of contention for it -- Piniella all the while keeping an eye on whether that New York job would open up after the 2006 season.

In fact, Chicago favorite son Joe Girardi -- the man who got that New York job a year later -- still calls the Cubs' managing job attractive.

''It's a great city, it's a great baseball town, yeah,'' the Peoria native and originally drafted Cub says even now. Even with the confetti still occasionally falling from a sock or shirt sleeve after that latest World Series he presided over as the Yankees' second-year manager in October.

But would the Northwestern grad and All-Star Cubs catcher with four Yankees rings -- three as a player -- again consider tackling what might be the only great challenge in the game he hasn't already taken down in his young managing career.

Maybe even now?

What's certain is this: The 45-year-old who won a Manager of the Year award in Florida in his first season on the job and a World Series in New York in his third season as a manager (second with the Yanks) is not under contract beyond this season.

What's nearly as certain is that the Cubs will have a managerial opening after this season, whether because Piniella steps down, is not asked back or by some mutual decision.

And for all the attention and sentiment directed Ryne Sandberg's way by those speculating on Piniella's successor, it's hard to imagine a more suitable replacement than the other guy who played there, is from there, has succeeded at two different ends of the major-league managing spectrum and has commanded respect and performance from young teams in Florida as well as celebrity teams in New York.

''That's not something I would talk about now,'' he said. ''I grew up in Peoria. I grew up a Cub fan. But right now, I'm extremely happy where I'm at.''

No doubt. But while the Yankees can say all they want about waiting until after the season to address extensions for their manager and several key veteran players, the fact they haven't locked up Girardi for a few more years after last year's title shows a conspicuous lack of regard -- if not a lack of respect.

If the Cubs want to start playing with the big boys under new ownership, if they want to do things like their role models, the Boston Red Sox, if they want to beat the Yankees -- here's their chance.

Go after the guy who might be the best fit for a roster beyond this year that figures to retain several marquee salary guys (if only because many can't be moved) while incorporating the kind of young, athletic talent that Girardi has shown a knack for helping succeed.

He's certainly not afraid of the challenge of that 102-year thing, or the Chicago meat grinder that chewed and spit out Dusty Baker and that has its teeth firmly sunk into Piniella's backside.

''Every job in the majors as a manager has its challenges,'' Girardi said. ''I enjoyed playing there. I enjoyed playing day games. And I loved it.''

So what about a run at managing this thing? A shot at pulling off the last impossible task left in American major-league sports?

He certainly couldn't be blamed for staying in New York if the Yankees get that extension offer together. But if they don't, or they take long enough to make him sweat, and Piniella departs this year, then the Cubs can certainly be blamed if they don't pounce.

And if it's just a matter of Joe making it so?

''You're asking me hypotheticals, and I don't deal in hypotheticals,'' he said. ''I am under contract. I love what I do. And I love managing.''

Link

Destined · 07-13-2010, 06:01 PM

1.Brenly, even though I can't see him getting a good initial reception.
2. Joe Girardi, but he'll probably be a Yankee.
3. Don Mattingly, but word is he's the next Dodger skipper.
4. Ryne Sandberg, if we can't grab anyone else, I'll go with lack of experience. I want to believe otherwise, but I just get the sense that Ryne's involvement and promotion is rather token.Great players never make good managers, but that goes for Mattingly too even though I consider him as Torre's apprentice.

veryzer · 07-13-2010, 06:35 PM

QUOTE (Destined @ Jul 13 2010, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>1.Brenly, even though I can't see him getting a good initial reception.
2. Joe Girardi, but he'll probably be a Yankee.
3. Don Mattingly, but word is he's the next Dodger skipper.
4. Ryne Sandberg, if we can't grab anyone else, I'll go with lack of experience. I want to believe otherwise, but I just get the sense that Ryne's involvement and promotion is rather token.Great players never make good managers, but that goes for Mattingly too even though I consider him as Torre's apprentice.

Why Don Mattingly?

***jstraw*** · 07-13-2010, 06:42 PM

QUOTE (Kid @ Jul 13 2010, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ANAHEIM, Calif. -- It's a job he coveted only 3½ years ago. About the time Lou Piniella was knocking him out of contention for it -- Piniella all the while keeping an eye on whether that New York job would open up after the 2006 season.

In fact, Chicago favorite son Joe Girardi -- the man who got that New York job a year later -- still calls the Cubs' managing job attractive.

''It's a great city, it's a great baseball town, yeah,'' the Peoria native and originally drafted Cub says even now. Even with the confetti still occasionally falling from a sock or shirt sleeve after that latest World Series he presided over as the Yankees' second-year manager in October.

But would the Northwestern grad and All-Star Cubs catcher with four Yankees rings -- three as a player -- again consider tackling what might be the only great challenge in the game he hasn't already taken down in his young managing career.

Maybe even now?

What's certain is this: The 45-year-old who won a Manager of the Year award in Florida in his first season on the job and a World Series in New York in his third season as a manager (second with the Yanks) is not under contract beyond this season.

What's nearly as certain is that the Cubs will have a managerial opening after this season, whether because Piniella steps down, is not asked back or by some mutual decision.

And for all the attention and sentiment directed Ryne Sandberg's way by those speculating on Piniella's successor, it's hard to imagine a more suitable replacement than the other guy who played there, is from there, has succeeded at two different ends of the major-league managing spectrum and has commanded respect and performance from young teams in Florida as well as celebrity teams in New York.

''That's not something I would talk about now,'' he said. ''I grew up in Peoria. I grew up a Cub fan. But right now, I'm extremely happy where I'm at.''

No doubt. But while the Yankees can say all they want about waiting until after the season to address extensions for their manager and several key veteran players, the fact they haven't locked up Girardi for a few more years after last year's title shows a conspicuous lack of regard -- if not a lack of respect.

If the Cubs want to start playing with the big boys under new ownership, if they want to do things like their role models, the Boston Red Sox, if they want to beat the Yankees -- here's their chance.

Go after the guy who might be the best fit for a roster beyond this year that figures to retain several marquee salary guys (if only because many can't be moved) while incorporating the kind of young, athletic talent that Girardi has shown a knack for helping succeed.

He's certainly not afraid of the challenge of that 102-year thing, or the Chicago meat grinder that chewed and spit out Dusty Baker and that has its teeth firmly sunk into Piniella's backside.

''Every job in the majors as a manager has its challenges,'' Girardi said. ''I enjoyed playing there. I enjoyed playing day games. And I loved it.''

So what about a run at managing this thing? A shot at pulling off the last impossible task left in American major-league sports?

He certainly couldn't be blamed for staying in New York if the Yankees get that extension offer together. But if they don't, or they take long enough to make him sweat, and Piniella departs this year, then the Cubs can certainly be blamed if they don't pounce.

And if it's just a matter of Joe making it so?

''You're asking me hypotheticals, and I don't deal in hypotheticals,'' he said. ''I am under contract. I love what I do. And I love managing.''

Link
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Dude, Rok posted the link six hours ago. That's so before-lunch.

Ace · 07-13-2010, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (BT @ Jul 13 2010, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE I don't think anyone has ever in the history of SOI won an argument with you.

You know, I'm getting pretty tired of people treating the fact that I actually back my arguments up with facts, and stick to my guns, as some sort of character flaw. News flash. that is what you are supposed to do on a message board. If you've got a counter argument, make it. Simply saying "no one has ever won an argument with you" is a fucking cop out, as it is utterly meaningless.

QUOTE And I don't really care that much to look it up right now, but I have an inkling that Soto "playing in 80% of the games" includes a significant number of games where: 1) Hill started the game and/or 2. Soto was used as a pinch hitter and/or late inning replacement

I'll save you the 12 seconds it took me to look this up. There were a grand total of 6 games in which Soto batted one or fewer times.
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I have to pick a nit a bit: You blow off the number of games where Soto has participated on a substitute level because it's a "grand total of 6," but that's almost 10% of his games. That's not exactly as insignificant as "6" sounds.

But, I think the mix of Hill and Soto has been acceptable. Where Soto's been batting, however, is insane.

But for good measure, I'll toss this into the fire. Although I'm one who says Lou should be (and should have been) fired, I can think of another justification for hitting Soto 8th. Arguably, he wouldn't be getting on base at such a savage clip if he didn't have the pitcher hitting behind him.

But that said, I'd have had him batting first or second two months ago.

***rok*** · 07-13-2010, 07:09 PM

QUOTE (Kid @ Jul 13 2010, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ANAHEIM, Calif. -- It's a job he coveted only 3½ years ago. About the time Lou Piniella was knocking him out of contention for it -- Piniella all the while keeping an eye on whether that New York job would open up after the 2006 season.

In fact, Chicago favorite son Joe Girardi -- the man who got that New York job a year later -- still calls the Cubs' managing job attractive.

''It's a great city, it's a great baseball town, yeah,'' the Peoria native and originally drafted Cub says even now. Even with the confetti still occasionally falling from a sock or shirt sleeve after that latest World Series he presided over as the Yankees' second-year manager in October.

But would the Northwestern grad and All-Star Cubs catcher with four Yankees rings -- three as a player -- again consider tackling what might be the only great challenge in the game he hasn't already taken down in his young managing career.

Maybe even now?

What's certain is this: The 45-year-old who won a Manager of the Year award in Florida in his first season on the job and a World Series in New York in his third season as a manager (second with the Yanks) is not under contract beyond this season.

What's nearly as certain is that the Cubs will have a managerial opening after this season, whether because Piniella steps down, is not asked back or by some mutual decision.

And for all the attention and sentiment directed Ryne Sandberg's way by those speculating on Piniella's successor, it's hard to imagine a more suitable replacement than the other guy who played there, is from there, has succeeded at two different ends of the major-league managing spectrum and has commanded respect and performance from young teams in Florida as well as celebrity teams in New York.

''That's not something I would talk about now,'' he said. ''I grew up in Peoria. I grew up a Cub fan. But right now, I'm extremely happy where I'm at.''

No doubt. But while the Yankees can say all they want about waiting until after the season to address extensions for their manager and several key veteran players, the fact they haven't locked up Girardi for a few more years after last year's title shows a conspicuous lack of regard -- if not a lack of respect.

If the Cubs want to start playing with the big boys under new ownership, if they want to do things like their role models, the Boston Red Sox, if they want to beat the Yankees -- here's their chance.

Go after the guy who might be the best fit for a roster beyond this year that figures to retain several marquee salary guys (if only because many can't be moved) while incorporating the kind of young, athletic talent that Girardi has shown a knack for helping succeed.

He's certainly not afraid of the challenge of that 102-year thing, or the Chicago meat grinder that chewed and spit out Dusty Baker and that has its teeth firmly sunk into Piniella's backside.

''Every job in the majors as a manager has its challenges,'' Girardi said. ''I enjoyed playing there. I enjoyed playing day games. And I loved it.''

So what about a run at managing this thing? A shot at pulling off the last impossible task left in American major-league sports?

He certainly couldn't be blamed for staying in New York if the Yankees get that extension offer together. But if they don't, or they take long enough to make him sweat, and Piniella departs this year, then the Cubs can certainly be blamed if they don't pounce.

And if it's just a matter of Joe making it so?

''You're asking me hypotheticals, and I don't deal in hypotheticals,'' he said. ''I am under contract. I love what I do. And I love managing.''

Link
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The weight of your career has clearly taken its toll.

Kid · 07-13-2010, 07:30 PM

Indeed.

Scarey · 07-13-2010, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 13 2010, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jul 13 2010, 08:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 13 2010, 06:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>And then when it's over, he'll say Lou should be fired anyway.

I don't understand why this upsets you so much. Why, if you believe the Cubs should get a new manager, do you have to 100% dump on the current one for every single thing he does?
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Why, if you believe the Cubs should get a new manager, do you have to 100% defend the current one every single time someone else dumps on him?
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I don't 100% defend him. Case in point, I agree with you on the Soto argument you guys are having with BT. I don't blindly defend him either. I speak my mind on what I think on each individual topic. If I hear someone saying Lou is not paying attention/senile/doesn't care/etc. then I will defend him on that because I think he is paying attention, is not senile, and does care. Not because I blindly defend him. Just because I disagree with you should not automatically make me the subject of your criticism.

Which brings me to my next defense. The way you guys are talking to BT is really smarmy and shitty. You're faulting him for the way he defends his arguments? The guy makes valid points. Even on points I disagree with him on (which, as hard as it is to believe, does in fact happen) I have to admit he makes a good case. Don't try to turn it into "you're actually wrong but you've convinced yourself you're right". That's just bullshit.

***Butcher*** · 07-13-2010, 08:12 PM

QUOTE The way you guys are talking to BT is really smarmy and shitty.
Please be more specific than "you guys." BT and I have had some epic arguments on this site, but I'd like to believe I've never crossed the line into smarmy and/or shitty.

***rok*** · 07-13-2010, 08:12 PM

I'm not going to paint everyone who disagrees with him with a broad brush, but put me in the camp that very much enjoys hearing BT's perspective because, although I try to be as rational as possible (try to contain your laughter) when it comes to the Cubs, I tend to have some pretty hard-line views on the game and this team. I can't say that I always agree with him, but his points are always well researched and this forces me stop and question my assumptions. I'd hate to see what this place would be like if everyone agreed on everything all the time.

Rappster · 07-13-2010, 08:13 PM

QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 13 2010, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE The way you guys are talking to BT is really smarmy and shitty.
Please be more specific than "you guys." BT and I have had some epic arguments on this site, but I'd like to believe I've never crossed the line into smarmy and/or shitty.
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You have, you do, and you will again.

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