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<!--quoteo(post=101454:date=Jun 15 2010, 10:27 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 15 2010, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101447:date=Jun 15 2010, 09:59 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Those other contracts were idiotic, too. Does presenting other idiotic contracts make Marquis' contract less idiotic by comparison?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap this is painful.
It's obvious BT was arguing the point that so many make so often.: Nobody else would have paid ______ that amount of money. He just showed examples that they would have in Marquis' case based on other contracts given to mediocre pitchers. It had nothing to do with showing it was or was not idiotic. It's like you're making up his argument for him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, by this logic, if there were a few absolutely retarded GMs willing to give Marquis 10/$100M, then signing him to a 3/$21M contract was an absolute fucking steal.
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<!--quoteo(post=101456:date=Jun 15 2010, 10:44 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jun 15 2010, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->BT, how much does FanGraphs say you and Scarey should make for your performance on the Cubs behalf?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/spit.gif[/img]
Right on queue.
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<!--quoteo(post=101457:date=Jun 15 2010, 10:45 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101454:date=Jun 15 2010, 10:27 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 15 2010, 10:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101447:date=Jun 15 2010, 09:59 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Those other contracts were idiotic, too. Does presenting other idiotic contracts make Marquis' contract less idiotic by comparison?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Holy crap this is painful.
It's obvious BT was arguing the point that so many make so often.: Nobody else would have paid ______ that amount of money. He just showed examples that they would have in Marquis' case based on other contracts given to mediocre pitchers. It had nothing to do with showing it was or was not idiotic. It's like you're making up his argument for him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, by this logic, if there were a few absolutely retarded GMs willing to give Marquis 10/$100M, then signing him to a 3/$21M contract was an absolute fucking steal.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Come on dude, don't do this.
If your argument is that there is a large number of stupid GMs that control the teams in this league, you can just say so. You don't have to say things like that. BTs argument is it doesn't matter if there's a large number of idiot GMs or not. If you want a certain pitcher and idiot GMs want the same pitcher, you're going to have to pay what the idiots would pay to secure him. You also have to determine if it's worth it to pay what the idiots are willing to pay. According to fangraphs, Hendry took a gamble and won. That's all he's saying.
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I'll try to make this as simple as possible.
- Giving a 14-16, 6.02 ERA pitcher a 3-year contract isn't wise -- regardless of what other GMs are doing.
- I can almost guarantee you that nearly any MLB organization can yank a pitcher out of their farm system, pay that young man league minimum, and get a 6.02 ERA from him. You don't need to pay $7M for a pitcher like that.
Herein lies Hendry's biggest flaw. He doesn't seem to be able to understand that you don't need to pay millions of dollars for the services of the Neifi Perez/Aaron Miles/Henry Blanco/John Grabows of the world when you can pick up a castoff or a youngster off the scrap heap and pay them league minimum for close to the same level of production.
I don't think Hendry is the worst GM out there. He's made some great trades and done some really good things as the Cubs' GM. He also has his fair share of shortcomings.
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<!--quoteo(post=101463:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:11 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'll try to make this as simple as possible.
- Giving a 14-16, 6.02 ERA pitcher a 3-year contract isn't wise -- regardless of what other GMs are doing.
- I can almost guarantee you that nearly any MLB organization can yank a pitcher out of their farm system, pay that young man league minimum, and get a 6.02 ERA from him. You don't need to pay $7M for a pitcher like that.
Herein lies Hendry's biggest flaw. He doesn't seem to be able to understand that you don't need to pay millions of dollars for the services of the Neifi Perez/Aaron Miles/Henry Blanco/John Grabows of the world when you can pick up a castoff or a youngster off the scrap heap and pay them league minimum for close to the same level of production.
I don't think Hendry is the worst GM out there. He's made some great trades and done some really good things as the Cubs' GM. He also has his fair share of shortcomings.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you're completely ignoring his 3.92 ERA and 400+ innings pitched the previous two years. Do you think there was a kid at the time that the Cubs had that could have thrown for a 4.57 ERA in 358 innings like Marquis did his two years in Chicago?
I know 4.57 ERA isn't that impressive, but considering what some of those other guys BT listed did in their contracts, I think Hendry did pretty well.
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And you're completely ignoring his body of work before those two years.
5.01 (his rookie year and in limited action)
3.48
5.04
5.53
3.71
4.13
6.02
That's a listing of his ERA, by year, before signing a 3/21 contract with the Cubs. At a glance, 3.48 and 3.71 look like outliers to me. You can also consider the fact that he was pitching under the tutelage of Leo Mazzone and Dave Duncan during those years and neither one of them had much continued success with him.
A 6.02 ERA could be looked past if he had just one atrocious season, but that wasn't the case. Usually you get demoted to AAA if you have a 6.02 ERA in 200 innings. Instead, he got a 3-year contract.
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<!--quoteo(post=101469:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:34 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And you're completely ignoring his body of work before those two years.
5.01 (his rookie year and in limited action)
3.48
5.04
5.53
3.71
4.13
6.02
That's a listing of his ERA, by year, before signing a 3/21 contract with the Cubs. At a glance, 3.48 and 3.71 look like outliers to me. You can also consider the fact that he was pitching under the tutelage of Leo Mazzone and Dave Duncan during those years and neither one of them had much continued success with him.
A 6.02 ERA could be looked past if he had just one atrocious season, but that wasn't the case. Usually you get demoted to AAA if you have a 6.02 ERA in 200 innings. Instead, he got a 3-year contract.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you want to look at his body of work, he had a career 4.55 ERA before coming to the Cubs. Looks like Hendry got exactly what his career numbers showed.
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And is a 4.55 ERA worth 3/$21M?
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<!--quoteo(post=101476:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And is a 4.55 ERA worth 3/$21M?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the market Marquis was signed in, I think so.
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You can make the point that Hendry overpaid to get Jason to Chicago but his bigger error was letting him go for Vizcaino and use the cash to sign Bradley.
My understanding is that Hendry traded Marquis for Vizcaino to rid himself of salary - along with Mark DeRosa - so he could sign Milton Bradley.
Well, how did that work out for the Cubs?
Jason pitches lights out to begin the 2009 season and goes on and to become an All Star in 2009. Vizcaino did make the team in 2009 but was cut before the end of April. Bradley, well, sucked. Cubs sucked just as bad.
If you're looking at Hendry's failure and looking at the Marque de Suck, it's probably better to look at how Hendry rid himself of Jason and the Cubs and Jason's performances after his departure.
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<!--quoteo(post=101478:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:48 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 15 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101476:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And is a 4.55 ERA worth 3/$21M?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the market Marquis was signed in, I think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're certainly welcome to your opinion.
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<!--quoteo(post=101480:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:49 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101478:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:48 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 15 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101476:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And is a 4.55 ERA worth 3/$21M?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the market Marquis was signed in, I think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're certainly welcome to your opinion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of curiosity, what do you think a player that throws for a 4.55 ERA anually is worth?
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<!--quoteo(post=101481:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:59 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 15 2010, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101480:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:49 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101478:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:48 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 15 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101476:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And is a 4.55 ERA worth 3/$21M?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the market Marquis was signed in, I think so.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you're certainly welcome to your opinion.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Out of curiosity, what do you think a player that throws for a 4.55 ERA anually is worth?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It depends on the year and the market, I suppose.
I'll throw you and BT a bone -- the free agent market that offseason was comically inflated.
But after posting a 6.02 ERA, leading the league in earned runs, homers and losses <i>in your contract year, </i> how the fuck do you land a 3 year deal? I actually would have been OK with a one year deal for Marquis at the average of his 3-year contract.
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<!--quoteo(post=101463:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:11 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't think Hendry is the worst GM out there. He's made some great trades and done some really good things as the Cubs' GM. He also has his fair share of shortcomings.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is spot on. Hendry has overseen a decade of relative success for the Cubs. We can been contenders, got as close to the WS as I've seen in my lifetime, and have always "attempted" to get better. Hendry hasn't sat on his ass and done nothing. He's tried.
However, it's time to move on. His GM philosophy has taken us as far as he can. We need to head in a different direction. I liken it to Doug Collins with the bulls in the late 80's (yes I know he's a coach). Collins did a nice job developing Jordan and turning the Bulls into a serious franchise, but it wasn't until Phil Jackson came in with his philosophy that a dynasty was born.
"Last year, I was sort of a kid and I was a little scared, I ain't scared any more."
Quote:- Hank Aaron
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<!--quoteo(post=101489:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:23 AM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 15 2010, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=101463:date=Jun 15 2010, 11:11 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 15 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't think Hendry is the worst GM out there. He's made some great trades and done some really good things as the Cubs' GM. He also has his fair share of shortcomings.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is spot on. Hendry has overseen a decade of relative success for the Cubs
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
nevermind, I've got my timeline all messed up
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