Zambrano

[MW4]

<!--quoteo(post=116054:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:11 AM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Oct 4 2010, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116048:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:37 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'm pretty much not gonna bother with this one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well shit, you win then. Continue to group all of the "Cubs fans" together and make generalizations about what they would think in a different universe. Cause that's really fair.

Is this not a plausible understaning of the chain of events:

Zambrano has a shitty opening day.
Zambrano has 3 less than stellar starts, not what you expect of an Ace but ok for a 3rd or 4th pitcher.
Zambrano appears to have lost his pitching ability in the eyes of the management by their own evaluation...some Cubs fans agree that Zambrano is on his way out of baseball.
The bullpen struggles.
There are one too many pitchers in the rotation because Ted Lilly is on the DL, but coming back.
Lou decides to move Zambrano to the bullpen because of the organizations evaluation of his performance this season to this point and what appears to be a trend based on the selected sample size. Some agree with this, some do not. Most people at SOI decree this to be a folly.
Zambrano does not pitch adequately in the bullpen. Zambrano is, in fact, a crazy person.
Zambrano returns to the rotation and pitches poorly. It seems to some that he is losing his shit altogether. Perhaps there is a trend.
Zambrano goes into exorcist mode on the team and is suspended indefinately. Some question whether his role this season may have had a lot to do with this breakdown. Some are sick of his shit altogether.
Zambrano comes back after anger management and minor league starts. He does not do well initially, but it appears he might be figuring things out.
He pitches a great game despite allowing what appears to be too many base runners. People here start questioning whether this would have happened in May if he would have been allowed to continue starting. Some disagree. Most are hopeful he continues to pitch well.
Zambrano stuns the world and continues to pitch well...in fact, pitches towards his career averages. Most here conclude that he was, in fact, treated improperly at the beginning of the season. One person does not.
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I'm just going to toss my two cents in her:
A LOT of things happen behind closed doors in the clubhouse.

Maybe, what caused that decision was part pitching and SOMETHING ELSE, like attitude, or maybe there were issues between Carlos and Lou/Larry/Jim, maybe work ethic, agent/contract demands, Maybey they were just sick of all of the Carlos BS, maybe they just felt like he needed the demotion to get his head straight, or that he would demand a trade and that's what they wanted, maybe he wasn't cutting Jim's lawn like he wanted (sorry, I couldn't resist ), or he got caught with Cindi.
Bottom line is ALL THREE Jim/Lou/Larry, thought it was the best thing to do at the time. Frankly, if he had become the dominant 7/8/9th inning guy like they thought, he would have been dimensionally better for this club (at the time we really needed bullpen help.)

And as far as Gorz and Silva, how much better would they have been, had Lou not needed to get more innings out of them because of the shitty bullpen early?

NOW, as far as the early shitty young bullpen--will we be much better next year because they all learned the ropes in the big leauges? -- YES

I think it all bodes well for this team for next year, as they can use this shit stain of a season as motivation, and now we have more experience by those rookies, for use by the Cubs or as ammo in trades for the parts we need. As for Silva, he pitched just 30 innings last year, I think he was just tired at the end--he should bounce back next year.

Get Dunn and a lot of things happen for the better--we should have done that before instead of Bradley.
Maybe we could get the Yanks to want Soriano as a DH, or any other AL team with room $$$ to have him.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=116054:date=Oct 4 2010, 11:11 AM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Oct 4 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116048:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:37 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'm pretty much not gonna bother with this one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well shit, you win then. Continue to group all of the "Cubs fans" together and make generalizations about what they would think in a different universe. Cause that's really fair.

Is this not a plausible understaning of the chain of events:

Zambrano has a shitty opening day.
Zambrano has 3 less than stellar starts, not what you expect of an Ace but ok for a 3rd or 4th pitcher.
Zambrano appears to have lost his pitching ability in the eyes of the management by their own evaluation...some Cubs fans agree that Zambrano is on his way out of baseball.
The bullpen struggles.
There are one too many pitchers in the rotation because Ted Lilly is on the DL, but coming back.
Lou decides to move Zambrano to the bullpen because of the organizations evaluation of his performance this season to this point and what appears to be a trend based on the selected sample size. Some agree with this, some do not. Most people at SOI decree this to be a folly.
Zambrano does not pitch adequately in the bullpen. Zambrano is, in fact, a crazy person.
Zambrano returns to the rotation and pitches poorly. It seems to some that he is losing his shit altogether. Perhaps there is a trend.
Zambrano goes into exorcist mode on the team and is suspended indefinately. Some question whether his role this season may have had a lot to do with this breakdown. Some are sick of his shit altogether.
Zambrano comes back after anger management and minor league starts. He does not do well initially, but it appears he might be figuring things out.
He pitches a great game despite allowing what appears to be too many base runners. People here start questioning whether this would have happened in May if he would have been allowed to continue starting. Some disagree. Most are hopeful he continues to pitch well.
Zambrano stuns the world and continues to pitch well...in fact, pitches towards his career averages. Most here conclude that he was, in fact, treated improperly at the beginning of the season. One person does not.
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The only part of this that I have even come remotely close to arguing is the last point. I'd say more, but I'm still going through your last post, and my Venn diagram of what I am and am not allowed to say isn't complete yet.

If the entirety of your position is that Zambrano was treated unfairly, then fine, knock yourself out. If you are trying to say that Zambrano was treated unfairly, it was a stupid move, and it adversely affected the Cubs, then I have a problem with it.

(Please note, I'm only speaking to BZ, or PCB or whomever stole the account today. I wouldn't dream of lumping all Cub fans together with my nefarious generalizations).

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=116042:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116022:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116019:date=Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115986:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115943:date=Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115939:date=Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115937:date=Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115933:date=Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115928:date=Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Zambrano finishes the season with a 3.33 ERA. His lowest since 2005. Who saw that coming?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's truly incredible.
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Truly incredible? Really? I'm not saying I would have predicted this, but I'm not surprised by it either.

Zambrano is a good pitcher. Always has been.
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Given where he was mid-season, I say again: it's truly incredible. How can anyone disagree with that?
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As I've said numerous times, had Zambrano been given the chance to work through his early season problems, there's no doubt in my mind that his mid-saeson troubles would not have existed. Though I'm a tad surprised, I don't think it's "truly incredible" in any way, shape or form.
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I have to admit I was wrong. I honestly thought it would take at least a few months before the idea that taking Zambrano out of the rotation CAUSED his problems would take hold.
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Putting him in the pen was idiotic and it did contribute the meltdown. You really think it played no role in the run up to his suspension? As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most egregious elements of the last stages of Lou Piniella's utter disintegration as a manager. That Hendry let it happen makes him responsible too. That Hendry will still be GM blows my mind. The Rickett's skepticism has set in hard. I think he thinks he can manage the business around the edges. I think he's too in awe of "baseball people" and won't step in to be an activist owner. This franchise needs an activist owner.
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BAM! There it is.

And again, I'm not saying the demotion CAUSED his problems. I'm saying the demotion exacerbated his current problems. Had he not been demoted, it's safe to assume that he would've righted the ship and had a productive year, <i>because that's what he's always done.</i>


Putting him in the bullpen was similar to lighting a fuse of a bomb. It had zero chance of working.

And I'm glad he's coming back too, because he's the only player on this team with any life. Plus, he's good. Always has been.
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These are the facts.

Before the move to the bullpen he was bad. After the move to the bullpen, he was bad. After the suspension he ranged from shakily effective to the best sustained pitching performance he's given in his life, I would assume.

He had a 5.66 ERA before the suspension, and a 1.58 ERA after the suspension.

IF the suspension had any affect on Zambrano, it was positive. You guys continually fucking bitch and moan about the suspension/move to the bullpen as if it were a catastrophe on the level of the Great Chicago Fire. WHY? ONLY GOOD THINGS HAPPENED after the suspension.

Here is my problem (as it always is with fans). If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and sucked cock, it surely would have been the fault of Hendry and Lou. If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and played lights out, it would have been the "fault" of Zambrano. There was literally no scenario in which you guys would have admitted the idea had merit. Every possible outcome would still lead you guys to act as if Lou/Hendry had murdered the Lindbergh baby.

Somehow you guys have taken a step further. Not only is Zambrano's great play all due only to Zambrano and his inherent talent, but somehow it's STILL Lou and Hendry's "fault", even though there is no fucking downside. NONE. Zambrano is probably more tradeable now than he was before the season started. You manage to give all the credit to the player, and then invent blame and give it to management.

There are only 2 possible conclusions here. Either the moves had NO effect on Zambrano or they had some effect on Zambrano. If there was no effect, then further discussion is unnecessary. If it had some effect on Zambrano, then the effect was that he became the best version of Zambrano we have seen in years. If that is the case, why do you keep bitching?
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Why don't you stop telling us what the fuck we would have done in some different, unprovable version the 2010 season? And stop telling us how many conclusions there can be. You don't run this shit. "Ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."...get the idea?

"Well if Zambrano did this, you would think this, and that is the basis for my argument you faceless, obscure group of random people"

In three of Zambrano four starts he averaged a quality start. If you think that is reason enough for a demotion then fine...continue thinking that. We will all disagree with you. You, yourself, solo, uno, nunca personas pero tu. No one else agrees with you. No one.

If you want to tell us that we are incapable of understanding [i]any[i/] other point of view, then fine, be a snarky ass clown, wrong again, and a hypocrite for not allowing yourself to view any other viewpoint. So keep standing up for the management, running the projector, and reminding the teacher to give us homework.

Question: Why the FUCK do you care if someone isn't crediting the management? Why? Why does it bother you? Are you the manager? Are you really setting out to change this in the world?
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Holy shit!

[veryzer]

This is my argument, and has been from day one:

Just because your #1 pitcher (and make no mistake, going into the season, Zambrano was #1) struggles to start a season (as he's done in the past), demoting him is not the wisest decision, especially when said pitcher is a raving lunatic, and especially when there are pitchers whose track records aren't even close to that pitcher's track record.

When the decision was made, I, and many others, thought it was retarded.

So he goes to the bullpen and actually regresses, goes batshit crazy, is suspended, and comes back and pitches the way he always has.

I believe that in my heart, if he isn't demoted, he rights the ship, doesn't get suspended, and wins 18 games while sporting a solid ERA.

I believe this because history says that's what's gonna happen. It's what's lways happened.

The Cubs created a mess when they demoted him, because it was a retarded decision. And it was retarded Gandalf, it was.

Now bt has made his feelings on this subject known, repeatedly, and though I admire his conviction and applaud him for being the lone voice in the forest, and am incredibly impressed with his powers of persuasion and his ability to argue, I am convinced that he's 100% wrong, knows he's wrong, and just likes to argue....or he really does work for the Cubs.

That's my stance, and even Clarence "bt" Darrow can't change it, no matter how hard he tries.

[Clapp]

I can't believe nobody responded to the news of Zambrano crashing into a garbage truck outside of Wrigley. You guys have changed!

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=116125:date=Oct 4 2010, 02:39 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Oct 4 2010, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I can't believe nobody responded to the news of Zambrano crashing into a garbage truck outside of Wrigley. You guys have changed!<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

*shrug*

Michael Barret was driving it. Who cares?

[jstraw]

Rich guy hoons car, plows into garbage truck...film at eleven.

*shrug*

[rok]

Unless he killed someone in the process and attempted to cover up the crime, it's just another moving violation to me Clappy.

[Clapp]

But it's just so fucking Zambrano! I love it. The dude has the weirdest season imaginable, and he immediately begins the offseason by destroying his car into a garbage truck as he's leaving the stadium. A garbage truck! Only Z.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=116139:date=Oct 4 2010, 03:04 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Oct 4 2010, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->But it's just so fucking Zambrano! I love it. The dude has the weirdest season imaginable, and he immediately begins the offseason by destroying his car into a garbage truck as he's leaving the stadium. A garbage truck! Only Z.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh...there's no doubt that it's fucking hilarious -- and if I had to pick one player in MLB that this would happen to, I would probably pick Z.

[dk123]

That was actually the truck that delivers Hendry's lunch.

[Ace]

Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.

I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=116183:date=Oct 4 2010, 06:04 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 4 2010, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Question - why do we consider the Z to the pen move a "demotion"? Because he was pitching badly? That's not really the MAIN reason he was moved to the pen. Lilly was coming back and all the other starters were pitching well. If Gorzelanny - who had an ERA around 2 at the time - had been moved to the pen, would that have been a "demotion"? Of course not. It would have been a move that had to be made because there wasn't a spot for Lilly.

I pretty much think the same is true of Z. He wasn't demoted. He was chosen. It just happened to be the wrong choice (I thought it should have been Wells, but whateves).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

To me, no matter what the reason, moving from starter to middle relief is a demotion. It's a step back.

[Butcher]

200 inning vs. 70 innings. It's a demotion.

[Ace]

So if the Cubs had moved Gorzelanny to the pen, it would have been a "demotion"? If a crappy starter is moved into a setup role and dominates, was he "demoted"? That's, of course, just silly. A demotion is when a guy sucks, and is bumped to the pen *because* of the suck - not because Ted Lilly returns from off-season shoulder surgery,

Look, guys, we agree that the outcome was the wrong move, so this is largely just semantics - but damnit, I'm sick of being at odds with you two. In every thread - it's you two, and me. Why can't we just get along?

(and yes, I recognize that's setting me up...)