Zambrano

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=116038:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:52 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 4 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I've stated from the beginning that Carlos's stats this season (before and after the move to the bullpen) had/will have no bearing on whether or not moving him to the pen was a bad decision. It was a bad decision, regardless. A pitcher with Zambrano's career stats should be allowed the breathing room to sort out whatever struggles he was having at the time of the decision.

I'm not going to re-hash my entire position because I'm sure everyone is sick of it by now. However, I'll just say that the fact that Zambrano finished the season with better numbers than Silva, Gorz, and Wells really shouldn't surprise anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


exactly. It shouldn't surprise anyone that he went 8-0 with a 1.58 ERA for the second half in order to surpass those guys. I can't imagine anyone not expecting those kinds of numbers. It was as inevitable as the sun rising the East.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=116039:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116022:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116019:date=Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115986:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115943:date=Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115939:date=Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115937:date=Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115933:date=Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115928:date=Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Zambrano finishes the season with a 3.33 ERA. His lowest since 2005. Who saw that coming?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's truly incredible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Truly incredible? Really? I'm not saying I would have predicted this, but I'm not surprised by it either.

Zambrano is a good pitcher. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Given where he was mid-season, I say again: it's truly incredible. How can anyone disagree with that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As I've said numerous times, had Zambrano been given the chance to work through his early season problems, there's no doubt in my mind that his mid-saeson troubles would not have existed. Though I'm a tad surprised, I don't think it's "truly incredible" in any way, shape or form.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have to admit I was wrong. I honestly thought it would take at least a few months before the idea that taking Zambrano out of the rotation CAUSED his problems would take hold.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Putting him in the pen was idiotic and it did contribute the meltdown. You really think it played no role in the run up to his suspension? As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most egregious elements of the last stages of Lou Piniella's utter disintegration as a manager. That Hendry let it happen makes him responsible too. That Hendry will still be GM blows my mind. The Rickett's skepticism has set in hard. I think he thinks he can manage the business around the edges. I think he's too in awe of "baseball people" and won't step in to be an activist owner. This franchise needs an activist owner.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


BAM! There it is.

And again, I'm not saying the demotion CAUSED his problems. I'm saying the demotion exacerbated his current problems. Had he not been demoted, it's safe to assume that he would've righted the ship and had a productive year, <i>because that's what he's always done.</i>


Putting him in the bullpen was similar to lighting a fuse of a bomb. It had zero chance of working.

And I'm glad he's coming back too, because he's the only player on this team with any life. Plus, he's good. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



These are the facts.

Before the move to the bullpen he was bad. After the move to the bullpen, he was bad. After the suspension he ranged from shakily effective to the best sustained pitching performance he's given in his life, I would assume.

He had a 5.66 ERA before the suspension, and a 1.58 ERA after the suspension.

IF the suspension had any affect on Zambrano, it was positive. You guys continually fucking bitch and moan about the suspension/move to the bullpen as if it were a catastrophe on the level of the Great Chicago Fire. WHY? ONLY GOOD THINGS HAPPENED after the suspension.

Here is my problem (as it always is with fans). If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and sucked cock, it surely would have been the fault of Hendry and Lou. If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and played lights out, it would have been the "fault" of Zambrano. There was literally no scenario in which you guys would have admitted the idea had merit. Every possible outcome would still lead you guys to act as if Lou/Hendry had murdered the Lindbergh baby.

Somehow you guys have taken a step further. Not only is Zambrano's great play all due only to Zambrano and his inherent talent, but somehow it's STILL Lou and Hendry's "fault", even though there is no fucking downside. NONE. Zambrano is probably more tradeable now than he was before the season started. You manage to give all the credit to the player, and then invent blame and give it to management.

There are only 2 possible conclusions here. Either the moves had NO effect on Zambrano or they had some effect on Zambrano. If there was no effect, then further discussion is unnecessary. If it had some effect on Zambrano, then the effect was that he became the best version of Zambrano we have seen in years. If that is the case, why do you keep bitching?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're conflating the effect of the suspension with the effect of the demotion. No demotion...no suspension.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And that argues against my point how, exactly?

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116022:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116019:date=Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115986:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115943:date=Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115939:date=Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115937:date=Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115933:date=Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115928:date=Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Zambrano finishes the season with a 3.33 ERA. His lowest since 2005. Who saw that coming?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's truly incredible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Truly incredible? Really? I'm not saying I would have predicted this, but I'm not surprised by it either.

Zambrano is a good pitcher. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Given where he was mid-season, I say again: it's truly incredible. How can anyone disagree with that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As I've said numerous times, had Zambrano been given the chance to work through his early season problems, there's no doubt in my mind that his mid-saeson troubles would not have existed. Though I'm a tad surprised, I don't think it's "truly incredible" in any way, shape or form.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have to admit I was wrong. I honestly thought it would take at least a few months before the idea that taking Zambrano out of the rotation CAUSED his problems would take hold.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Putting him in the pen was idiotic and it did contribute the meltdown. You really think it played no role in the run up to his suspension? As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most egregious elements of the last stages of Lou Piniella's utter disintegration as a manager. That Hendry let it happen makes him responsible too. That Hendry will still be GM blows my mind. The Rickett's skepticism has set in hard. I think he thinks he can manage the business around the edges. I think he's too in awe of "baseball people" and won't step in to be an activist owner. This franchise needs an activist owner.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


BAM! There it is.

And again, I'm not saying the demotion CAUSED his problems. I'm saying the demotion exacerbated his current problems. Had he not been demoted, it's safe to assume that he would've righted the ship and had a productive year, <i>because that's what he's always done.</i>


Putting him in the bullpen was similar to lighting a fuse of a bomb. It had zero chance of working.

And I'm glad he's coming back too, because he's the only player on this team with any life. Plus, he's good. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



These are the facts.

Before the move to the bullpen he was bad. After the move to the bullpen, he was bad. After the suspension he ranged from shakily effective to the best sustained pitching performance he's given in his life, I would assume.

He had a 5.66 ERA before the suspension, and a 1.58 ERA after the suspension.

IF the suspension had any affect on Zambrano, it was positive. You guys continually fucking bitch and moan about the suspension/move to the bullpen as if it were a catastrophe on the level of the Great Chicago Fire. WHY? ONLY GOOD THINGS HAPPENED after the suspension.

Here is my problem (as it always is with fans). If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and sucked cock, it surely would have been the fault of Hendry and Lou. If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and played lights out, it would have been the "fault" of Zambrano. There was literally no scenario in which you guys would have admitted the idea had merit. Every possible outcome would still lead you guys to act as if Lou/Hendry had murdered the Lindbergh baby.

Somehow you guys have taken a step further. Not only is Zambrano's great play all due only to Zambrano and his inherent talent, but somehow it's STILL Lou and Hendry's "fault", even though there is no fucking downside. NONE. Zambrano is probably more tradeable now than he was before the season started. You manage to give all the credit to the player, and then invent blame and give it to management.

There are only 2 possible conclusions here. Either the moves had NO effect on Zambrano or they had some effect on Zambrano. If there was no effect, then further discussion is unnecessary. If it had some effect on Zambrano, then the effect was that he became the best version of Zambrano we have seen in years. If that is the case, why do you keep bitching?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you stop telling us what the fuck we would have done in some different, unprovable version the 2010 season? And stop telling us how many conclusions there can be. You don't run this shit. "Ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."...get the idea?

"Well if Zambrano did this, you would think this, and that is the basis for my argument you faceless, obscure group of random people"

In three of Zambrano four starts he averaged a quality start. If you think that is reason enough for a demotion then fine...continue thinking that. We will all disagree with you. You, yourself, solo, uno, nunca personas pero tu. No one else agrees with you. No one.

If you want to tell us that we are incapable of understanding [i]any[i/] other point of view, then fine, be a snarky ass clown, wrong again, and a hypocrite for not allowing yourself to view any other viewpoint. So keep standing up for the management, running the projector, and reminding the teacher to give us homework.

Question: Why the FUCK do you care if someone isn't crediting the management? Why? Why does it bother you? Are you the manager? Are you really setting out to change this in the world?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=116040:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:58 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116038:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:52 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 4 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I've stated from the beginning that Carlos's stats this season (before and after the move to the bullpen) had/will have no bearing on whether or not moving him to the pen was a bad decision. It was a bad decision, regardless. A pitcher with Zambrano's career stats should be allowed the breathing room to sort out whatever struggles he was having at the time of the decision.

I'm not going to re-hash my entire position because I'm sure everyone is sick of it by now. However, I'll just say that the fact that Zambrano finished the season with better numbers than Silva, Gorz, and Wells really shouldn't surprise anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


exactly. It shouldn't surprise anyone that he went 8-0 with a 1.58 ERA for the second half in order to surpass those guys. I can't imagine anyone not expecting those kinds of numbers. It was as inevitable as the sun rising the East.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right -- I didn't expect him to pitch like Walter Johnson in the second half. However, I did expect Zambrano's numbers at the end of the season to look more like his career numbers (which they did) and Silva and Gorz's to look more like their career numbers (which they did).

This is why you don't make decisions like this based on four starts in April.

[bz]

There are TWO dildos in my mouth and ass!!

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=116042:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116022:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116019:date=Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115986:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115943:date=Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115939:date=Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115937:date=Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115933:date=Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115928:date=Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Zambrano finishes the season with a 3.33 ERA. His lowest since 2005. Who saw that coming?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's truly incredible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Truly incredible? Really? I'm not saying I would have predicted this, but I'm not surprised by it either.

Zambrano is a good pitcher. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Given where he was mid-season, I say again: it's truly incredible. How can anyone disagree with that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As I've said numerous times, had Zambrano been given the chance to work through his early season problems, there's no doubt in my mind that his mid-saeson troubles would not have existed. Though I'm a tad surprised, I don't think it's "truly incredible" in any way, shape or form.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have to admit I was wrong. I honestly thought it would take at least a few months before the idea that taking Zambrano out of the rotation CAUSED his problems would take hold.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Putting him in the pen was idiotic and it did contribute the meltdown. You really think it played no role in the run up to his suspension? As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most egregious elements of the last stages of Lou Piniella's utter disintegration as a manager. That Hendry let it happen makes him responsible too. That Hendry will still be GM blows my mind. The Rickett's skepticism has set in hard. I think he thinks he can manage the business around the edges. I think he's too in awe of "baseball people" and won't step in to be an activist owner. This franchise needs an activist owner.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


BAM! There it is.

And again, I'm not saying the demotion CAUSED his problems. I'm saying the demotion exacerbated his current problems. Had he not been demoted, it's safe to assume that he would've righted the ship and had a productive year, <i>because that's what he's always done.</i>


Putting him in the bullpen was similar to lighting a fuse of a bomb. It had zero chance of working.

And I'm glad he's coming back too, because he's the only player on this team with any life. Plus, he's good. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->



These are the facts.

Before the move to the bullpen he was bad. After the move to the bullpen, he was bad. After the suspension he ranged from shakily effective to the best sustained pitching performance he's given in his life, I would assume.

He had a 5.66 ERA before the suspension, and a 1.58 ERA after the suspension.

IF the suspension had any affect on Zambrano, it was positive. You guys continually fucking bitch and moan about the suspension/move to the bullpen as if it were a catastrophe on the level of the Great Chicago Fire. WHY? ONLY GOOD THINGS HAPPENED after the suspension.

Here is my problem (as it always is with fans). If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and sucked cock, it surely would have been the fault of Hendry and Lou. If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and played lights out, it would have been the "fault" of Zambrano. There was literally no scenario in which you guys would have admitted the idea had merit. Every possible outcome would still lead you guys to act as if Lou/Hendry had murdered the Lindbergh baby.

Somehow you guys have taken a step further. Not only is Zambrano's great play all due only to Zambrano and his inherent talent, but somehow it's STILL Lou and Hendry's "fault", even though there is no fucking downside. NONE. Zambrano is probably more tradeable now than he was before the season started. You manage to give all the credit to the player, and then invent blame and give it to management.

There are only 2 possible conclusions here. Either the moves had NO effect on Zambrano or they had some effect on Zambrano. If there was no effect, then further discussion is unnecessary. If it had some effect on Zambrano, then the effect was that he became the best version of Zambrano we have seen in years. If that is the case, why do you keep bitching?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why don't you stop telling us what the fuck we would have done in some different, unprovable version the 2010 season? And stop telling us how many conclusions there can be. You don't run this shit. "Ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."...get the idea?

"Well if Zambrano did this, you would think this, and that is the basis for my argument you faceless, obscure group of random people"

In three of Zambrano four starts he averaged a quality start. If you think that is reason enough for a demotion then fine...continue thinking that. We will all disagree with you. You, yourself, solo, uno, nunca personas pero tu. No one else agrees with you. No one.

If you want to tell us that we are incapable of understanding [i]any[i/] other point of view, then fine, be a snarky ass clown, wrong again, and a hypocrite for not allowing yourself to view any other viewpoint. So keep standing up for the management, running the projector, and reminding the teacher to give us homework.

Question: Why the FUCK do you care if someone isn't crediting the management? Why? Why does it bother you? Are you the manager? Are you really setting out to change this in the world?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I posted this.

And nice hyperbole. Everything is an absolute, assumed or a distorted, pretend reality with you, eh?

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=116043:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:06 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 4 2010, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116040:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:58 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116038:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:52 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 4 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I've stated from the beginning that Carlos's stats this season (before and after the move to the bullpen) had/will have no bearing on whether or not moving him to the pen was a bad decision. It was a bad decision, regardless. A pitcher with Zambrano's career stats should be allowed the breathing room to sort out whatever struggles he was having at the time of the decision.

I'm not going to re-hash my entire position because I'm sure everyone is sick of it by now. However, I'll just say that the fact that Zambrano finished the season with better numbers than Silva, Gorz, and Wells really shouldn't surprise anyone.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


exactly. It shouldn't surprise anyone that he went 8-0 with a 1.58 ERA for the second half in order to surpass those guys. I can't imagine anyone not expecting those kinds of numbers. It was as inevitable as the sun rising the East.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right -- I didn't expect him to pitch like Walter Johnson in the second half. However, I did expect Zambrano's numbers at the end of the season to look more like his career numbers (which they did) and Silva and Gorz's to look more like their career numbers (which they did).

This is why you don't make decisions like this based on four starts in April.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Thank you. If someone is going to make an evaluation about a player based on their history that early in the season, you would think that one would go with the guy who has had a decent one and not a short, unproven one (Gorz') or shitty one (Silva).

[rok]

Players have a funny way of reverting to their career averages. Putting too much stock in 4 starts or 55 starts (during which I have pointed out in the past, Z was actually very good for the majority of those 55 starts that the media and Hendry love to point to) is a dangerous way to analyze stats.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=116042:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Oct 4 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116022:date=Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 4 2010, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116019:date=Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115986:date=Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 3 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115943:date=Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115939:date=Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115937:date=Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Oct 3 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115933:date=Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Oct 3 2010, 07:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=115928:date=Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Oct 2 2010, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Zambrano finishes the season with a 3.33 ERA. His lowest since 2005. Who saw that coming?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It's truly incredible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Truly incredible? Really? I'm not saying I would have predicted this, but I'm not surprised by it either.

Zambrano is a good pitcher. Always has been.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Given where he was mid-season, I say again: it's truly incredible. How can anyone disagree with that?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

As I've said numerous times, had Zambrano been given the chance to work through his early season problems, there's no doubt in my mind that his mid-saeson troubles would not have existed. Though I'm a tad surprised, I don't think it's "truly incredible" in any way, shape or form.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I have to admit I was wrong. I honestly thought it would take at least a few months before the idea that taking Zambrano out of the rotation CAUSED his problems would take hold.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Putting him in the pen was idiotic and it did contribute the meltdown. You really think it played no role in the run up to his suspension? As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most egregious elements of the last stages of Lou Piniella's utter disintegration as a manager. That Hendry let it happen makes him responsible too. That Hendry will still be GM blows my mind. The Rickett's skepticism has set in hard. I think he thinks he can manage the business around the edges. I think he's too in awe of "baseball people" and won't step in to be an activist owner. This franchise needs an activist owner.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


BAM! There it is.

And again, I'm not saying the demotion CAUSED his problems. I'm saying the demotion exacerbated his current problems. Had he not been demoted, it's safe to assume that he would've righted the ship and had a productive year, <i>because that's what he's always done.</i>


Putting him in the bullpen was similar to lighting a fuse of a bomb. It had zero chance of working.

And I'm glad he's coming back too, because he's the only player on this team with any life. Plus, he's good. Always has been.
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These are the facts.

Before the move to the bullpen he was bad. After the move to the bullpen, he was bad. After the suspension he ranged from shakily effective to the best sustained pitching performance he's given in his life, I would assume.

He had a 5.66 ERA before the suspension, and a 1.58 ERA after the suspension.

IF the suspension had any affect on Zambrano, it was positive. You guys continually fucking bitch and moan about the suspension/move to the bullpen as if it were a catastrophe on the level of the Great Chicago Fire. WHY? ONLY GOOD THINGS HAPPENED after the suspension.

Here is my problem (as it always is with fans). If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and sucked cock, it surely would have been the fault of Hendry and Lou. If Zambrano had come back from the suspension and played lights out, it would have been the "fault" of Zambrano. There was literally no scenario in which you guys would have admitted the idea had merit. Every possible outcome would still lead you guys to act as if Lou/Hendry had murdered the Lindbergh baby.

Somehow you guys have taken a step further. Not only is Zambrano's great play all due only to Zambrano and his inherent talent, but somehow it's STILL Lou and Hendry's "fault", even though there is no fucking downside. NONE. Zambrano is probably more tradeable now than he was before the season started. You manage to give all the credit to the player, and then invent blame and give it to management.

There are only 2 possible conclusions here. Either the moves had NO effect on Zambrano or they had some effect on Zambrano. If there was no effect, then further discussion is unnecessary. If it had some effect on Zambrano, then the effect was that he became the best version of Zambrano we have seen in years. If that is the case, why do you keep bitching?
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Why don't you stop telling us what the fuck we would have done in some different, unprovable version the 2010 season? And stop telling us how many conclusions there can be. You don't run this shit. "Ifs and buts were candy and nuts..."...get the idea?

"Well if Zambrano did this, you would think this, and that is the basis for my argument you faceless, obscure group of random people"

In three of Zambrano four starts he averaged a quality start. If you think that is reason enough for a demotion then fine...continue thinking that. We will all disagree with you. You, yourself, solo, uno, nunca personas pero tu. No one else agrees with you. No one.

If you want to tell us that we are incapable of understanding [i]any[i/] other point of view, then fine, be a snarky ass clown, wrong again, and a hypocrite for not allowing yourself to view any other viewpoint. So keep standing up for the management, running the projector, and reminding the teacher to give us homework.

Question: Why the FUCK do you care if someone isn't crediting the management? Why? Why does it bother you? Are you the manager? Are you really setting out to change this in the world?
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Yeah, I'm pretty much not gonna bother with this one.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=116039:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You're conflating the effect of the suspension with the effect of the demotion. No demotion...no suspension.
<!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->



And that argues against my point how, exactly?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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You're right. Z needed to be taught a lesson. He never would have pitched an awesome second half if he weren't put in his place. Gaslighting him into dick-measuring with D-Lee was the only way to save him. It was brilliant. Give Hendry a contract extension NOW. Quick...get Lou on the phone...beg, plead....whatever it takes.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=116049:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:39 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116039:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You're conflating the effect of the suspension with the effect of the demotion. No demotion...no suspension.
<!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->



And that argues against my point how, exactly?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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You're right. Z needed to be taught a lesson. He never would have pitched an awesome second half if he weren't put in his place. Gaslighting him into dick-measuring with D-Lee was the only way to save him. It was brilliant. Give Hendry a contract extension NOW. Quick...get Lou on the phone...beg, plead....whatever it takes.
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Nifty, but I'm serious. How does the idea that the demotion caused the suspension IN ANY WAY change my point? If my point is that the suspension either had no effect on Zambrano, or it helped him, what possible difference does it make that the demotion caused the suspension? If that is in fact that case, then you can make the argument that the the demotion either had no effect or it HELPED Zambrano.

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=116048:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:37 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yeah, I'm pretty much not gonna bother with this one.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well shit, you win then. Continue to group all of the "Cubs fans" together and make generalizations about what they would think in a different universe. Cause that's really fair.

Is this not a plausible understaning of the chain of events:

Zambrano has a shitty opening day.
Zambrano has 3 less than stellar starts, not what you expect of an Ace but ok for a 3rd or 4th pitcher.
Zambrano appears to have lost his pitching ability in the eyes of the management by their own evaluation...some Cubs fans agree that Zambrano is on his way out of baseball.
The bullpen struggles.
There are one too many pitchers in the rotation because Ted Lilly is on the DL, but coming back.
Lou decides to move Zambrano to the bullpen because of the organizations evaluation of his performance this season to this point and what appears to be a trend based on the selected sample size. Some agree with this, some do not. Most people at SOI decree this to be a folly.
Zambrano does not pitch adequately in the bullpen. Zambrano is, in fact, a crazy person.
Zambrano returns to the rotation and pitches poorly. It seems to some that he is losing his shit altogether. Perhaps there is a trend.
Zambrano goes into exorcist mode on the team and is suspended indefinately. Some question whether his role this season may have had a lot to do with this breakdown. Some are sick of his shit altogether.
Zambrano comes back after anger management and minor league starts. He does not do well initially, but it appears he might be figuring things out.
He pitches a great game despite allowing what appears to be too many base runners. People here start questioning whether this would have happened in May if he would have been allowed to continue starting. Some disagree. Most are hopeful he continues to pitch well.
Zambrano stuns the world and continues to pitch well...in fact, pitches towards his career averages. Most here conclude that he was, in fact, treated improperly at the beginning of the season. One person does not.

[willis]

I'm just happy he finished lights out and just hope it carries over to next year. The pen move was desperate and pretty dumb and very knee jerk. His return to the rotation was unflattering. His meltdown was irresposnible. His return after was phenominal. Kid was burning white hot.

Just hope he remembers that next Spring.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=116051:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:45 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116049:date=Oct 4 2010, 10:39 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=116039:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Oct 4 2010, 09:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->You're conflating the effect of the suspension with the effect of the demotion. No demotion...no suspension.
<!--quoteo(post=116034:date=Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Oct 4 2010, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->



And that argues against my point how, exactly?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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You're right. Z needed to be taught a lesson. He never would have pitched an awesome second half if he weren't put in his place. Gaslighting him into dick-measuring with D-Lee was the only way to save him. It was brilliant. Give Hendry a contract extension NOW. Quick...get Lou on the phone...beg, plead....whatever it takes.
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Nifty, but I'm serious. How does the idea that the demotion caused the suspension IN ANY WAY change my point? If my point is that the suspension either had no effect on Zambrano, or it helped him, what possible difference does it make that the demotion caused the suspension? If that is in fact that case, then you can make the argument that the the demotion either had no effect or it HELPED Zambrano.
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How is extending the number of starts he missed, beginning with the demotion, through the suspension, and the minor league stretch-out, either neutral or good?

[Clapp]

This might be my favorite one yet!

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->thekapman

Eyewitnesses tell me that Carlos Zambrano damaged his car hitting a garbage truck in his haste to exit Wrigley Field this morning....<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->thekapman

The accident was not serious but his car reportedly sustained some significant damage.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->