Zambrano

[veryzer]

I know I may be in the minority, but I'd like the Cubs to keep him, rehabilitate him, and see how he does next year. Maybe shut him down for the rest of this year, get his head on as right as possible, get him healthy, insure him he's a starter next year, and see if he can get back on track.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=108209:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:57 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108206:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:53 AM:name=willis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (willis @ Jul 27 2010, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->No, it doesn't end on July 27...but I think I read somewhere over the past couple of days that this team has the highest number of quality starts in baseball? If that is the case it's hard to argue against where the rotation is right now as we speak.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that mean it couldn't be better with Z in the rotation?

What Silva and Gorz's relative success doesn't address is the fact that we may have fucked up a talented, expensive (and, yes, batshit crazy) starting pitcher that we still have under contract for a while. Was making a short-sighted decision like this worth what we're certainly going to have to deal with now and down the road with Z?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


It wasn't a short sighted decision. I think my limit of attempts to explain this to you is seven, but Hendry specifically said the move was based on his last 50 starts, not his last 4.

And your argument that it was a bad decision because even though the Cubs have, in theory, the best rotation in the national league (if you go by QS), even though the stats say it was the RIGHT decision, they could maybe be a bit better, and/or it all might go south in the next 2 months, so it's the wrong decision, makes my eyes bleed.

Just to clarify:

The Cubs lead the league in Quality Starts.
As a whole, there isn't one pitcher in the rotation who has been consistently bad
Zambrano was not very good as a starter this year
Zambrano was, at best, less than impressive last year
Zambrano wasn't very good as a reliever this year
Zambrano wasn't very good coming back as a starter this year.
Zambrano is batshit crazy.

And according to you, it was borderline criminal negligence to take Zambrano out of the rotation.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't a short sighted decision. I think my limit of attempts to explain this to you is seven, but Hendry specifically said the move was based on his last 50 starts, not his last 4.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as long as Hendry said that the move was based on his last 50 starts, it absolutely proves that the move wasn't short sighted. Thanks for finally clearing that up. I guess it took seven times for me to get it. You can't look at Silva and Gorz's last 50 starts -- only Zambrano's. The only starts that counted for Silva and Gorz was their first two of the 2010 season. Got it. Not short sighted. I finally get it, BT. You're a champ.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->As a whole, there isn't one pitcher in the rotation who has been consistently bad<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wells was pretty consistently bad for a pretty long stretch. Good thing for him he had a long track record of success and was able to pitch through his struggles.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano was not very good as a starter this year<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, on April 21, we should make decisions only based on the beginning of the season up to that point. Completely ignore the rest of their career. If A-Rod is hitting .200 and Ramiro Pena is hitting .300 on April 21, you make A-Rod a pinch hitter and you put Pena at 3B. This is all starting to make sense to me!

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano was, at best, less than impressive last year<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by "less than impressive," you mean "not an All-Star," then you've got me there. In this context, "less than impressive" means "better than Silva and Gorz's career averages, and a whole shitload better than their previous two seasons" to me.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano wasn't very good as a reliever this year
Zambrano wasn't very good coming back as a starter this year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...was the decision based on the above?

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And according to you, it was borderline criminal negligence to take Zambrano out of the rotation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I said the move was idiotic and short-sighted. I don't remember calling for Lou's arrest.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=108356:date=Jul 28 2010, 08:16 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2010, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't a short sighted decision. I think my limit of attempts to explain this to you is seven, but Hendry specifically said the move was based on his last 50 starts, not his last 4.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as long as Hendry said that the move was based on his last 50 starts, it absolutely proves that the move wasn't short sighted. Thanks for finally clearing that up. I guess it took seven times for me to get it. You can't look at Silva and Gorz's last 50 starts -- only Zambrano's. The only starts that counted for Silva and Gorz was their first two of the 2010 season. Got it. Not short sighted. I finally get it, BT. You're a champ.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->As a whole, there isn't one pitcher in the rotation who has been consistently bad<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wells was pretty consistently bad for a pretty long stretch. Good thing for him he had a long track record of success and was able to pitch through his struggles.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano was not very good as a starter this year<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, on April 21, we should make decisions only based on the beginning of the season up to that point. Completely ignore the rest of their career. If A-Rod is hitting .200 and Ramiro Pena is hitting .300 on April 21, you make A-Rod a pinch hitter and you put Pena at 3B. This is all starting to make sense to me!

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano was, at best, less than impressive last year<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by "less than impressive," you mean "not an All-Star," then you've got me there. In this context, "less than impressive" means "better than Silva and Gorz's career averages, and a whole shitload better than their previous two seasons" to me.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano wasn't very good as a reliever this year
Zambrano wasn't very good coming back as a starter this year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...was the decision based on the above?

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And according to you, it was borderline criminal negligence to take Zambrano out of the rotation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I said the move was idiotic and short-sighted. I don't remember calling for Lou's arrest.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Butch wins.

BT, you can convince me the sky is red when I can see it's blue, you can convince me that Jim Hendry is a good GM, that Russell Brand is a great actor, that Gacy was just misunderstood, but you will never convince me that moving Zambrano to the bullpen was anything short of retarded. Because it was retarded.

[Coach]

Zambrano's decline has been years in the making.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=108356:date=Jul 28 2010, 08:16 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 28 2010, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't a short sighted decision. I think my limit of attempts to explain this to you is seven, but Hendry specifically said the move was based on his last 50 starts, not his last 4.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, as long as Hendry said that the move was based on his last 50 starts, it absolutely proves that the move wasn't short sighted. Thanks for finally clearing that up. I guess it took seven times for me to get it. You can't look at Silva and Gorz's last 50 starts -- only Zambrano's. The only starts that counted for Silva and Gorz was their first two of the 2010 season. Got it. Not short sighted. I finally get it, BT. You're a champ.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->As a whole, there isn't one pitcher in the rotation who has been consistently bad<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wells was pretty consistently bad for a pretty long stretch. Good thing for him he had a long track record of success and was able to pitch through his struggles.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano was not very good as a starter this year<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, on April 21, we should make decisions only based on the beginning of the season up to that point. Completely ignore the rest of their career. If A-Rod is hitting .200 and Ramiro Pena is hitting .300 on April 21, you make A-Rod a pinch hitter and you put Pena at 3B. This is all starting to make sense to me!

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano was, at best, less than impressive last year<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If by "less than impressive," you mean "not an All-Star," then you've got me there. In this context, "less than impressive" means "better than Silva and Gorz's career averages, and a whole shitload better than their previous two seasons" to me.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano wasn't very good as a reliever this year
Zambrano wasn't very good coming back as a starter this year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...was the decision based on the above?

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And according to you, it was borderline criminal negligence to take Zambrano out of the rotation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure I said the move was idiotic and short-sighted. I don't remember calling for Lou's arrest.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I'm done with this Butch. You have reached KB levels of repeatedly ignoring what I say. This is how our argument goes.

Butch: "they shouldn't have taken him out. They should look at his history".
Me: "They did look at his history"
Butch: "If they are looking at his history, why don't they look at everyone's history".
Me: "Because they didn't need to look at everyone's history, because their present was better than Zambrano's".
Butch: "They shouldn't take Zambrano out because of his present, they should look at his history".
Me: "They did look at his history".
Butch: "Why don't they look at everyone's history?"
Me: "Because they didn't need to look at everyone's history, because their present was better than Zambrano's"
Butch: "They shouldn't take Zambrano out because of his present. They should look at his history".

and so on.

[jstraw]

I'm with Butch on this. If you look at his history, you have to look at everybody's history. You can't deduce SHIT from a couple of starts. Hell, Silva might be back to Cy Young form...and his two really shitty outings might have been the anomaly. We just don't know. I'm way more sympathetic to the idea that Z might have been a cure for our 8th inning woes than that he was the worst pitcher in the rotation. In any case it was a stupid idea. I thought and said so then and I think and say so now.

[Butcher]

Believe me, BT -- I feel exactly the same about this discussion as you do.

Me: Pulling Z in favor of Gorz and Silva based on 2 starts is short-sighted.
BT: It wasn't based on 2 starts. Hendry explicitly said he looked at Z's previous 50.
Me: So he looked at Z's previous 50, but ignored Silva and Gorz's previous 50?
BT: They didn't have to look at Silva and Gorz's previous 50. They were lights-out in April and Z sucked.
Me: Well, that's short-sighted of them. How can you pull Z after less than a handful of starts when his track record is so much better than Silva and Gorz's?
BT: I've told you 7 times already, Butch. Why can't you get this? Hendry SAID that he looked at Z's last 50 starts.

and so on.

[Rappster]

You want to boil this argument down to absolute science? Are you prepared to apply the same logic across the entire spectrum of Cubs baseball?

You're refusing to allow the inclusion of any subjective elements...

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=91724:date=Apr 21 2010, 03:58 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Apr 21 2010, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->definitely not the move I would make, but I'm not sure it calls for a full scale flip out either.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

BT, this is what you said back then. What move would you have made?

[vitaminB]

For what it's worth, the "top five pitcher in the NL" has another shaky AAA relief appearance.


Zambrano rocked

[Rappster]

<!--quoteo(post=108388:date=Jul 28 2010, 10:02 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Jul 28 2010, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91724:date=Apr 21 2010, 03:58 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Apr 21 2010, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->definitely not the move I would make, but I'm not sure it calls for a full scale flip out either.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

BT, this is what you said back then. What move would you have made?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think you just made BT's argument, in its entirety.

All he's done is shown you that he sees both sides, does not believe this was a Dark Side plot, might not even agree with the move, but doesn't believe it was cause for the kinds of histrionics being displayed here.

You're saying this line shows something different?

Looks again, bubbeleh...

[willis]

Whether it was the right move at the time is an argument that probably the majority falls on the side of it was the wrong decision. But I am in the camp that sees it from both sides in that maybe it could have been a short term fix of a huge problem that the team was having, when the team still thought it was good enough to contend. Instead of let the season slip away in April because of an underperforming bullpen, let's see if this crazy ass experiment works. It has obviously backfired, but going back to April, I really don't think it had to do with performance or punishment, it was need. And desperation.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=108390:date=Jul 28 2010, 10:07 AM:name=Rappster)-->QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 28 2010, 10:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108388:date=Jul 28 2010, 10:02 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Jul 28 2010, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=91724:date=Apr 21 2010, 03:58 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Apr 21 2010, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->definitely not the move I would make, but I'm not sure it calls for a full scale flip out either.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

BT, this is what you said back then. What move would you have made?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think you just made BT's argument, in its entirety.

All he's done is shown you that he sees both sides, does not believe this was a Dark Side plot, might not even agree with the move, but doesn't believe it was cause for the kinds of histrionics being displayed here.

You're saying this line shows something different?

Looks again, bubbeleh...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

He said it was "definitely not the move I would make." I'm asking him what move he would have made, schmegegge...

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=108389:date=Jul 28 2010, 11:05 AM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jul 28 2010, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->For what it's worth, the "top five pitcher in the NL" has another shaky AAA relief appearance.


Zambrano rocked<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

"Zambrano is still a top NL pitcher"