Zambrano

[Bricklayer]

<!--quoteo(post=108195:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108193:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:12 AM:name=willis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (willis @ Jul 27 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And round and round we go. I don't for a minute think this was a knee jerk type of thing or anything set in motion by malice. I think this was a decision made because the roster that had been put together was top heavy as shit with no protection in the bullpen other than Marmol, and shit knows with his mechanics his arm may fly right off his body.

Was he being shopped last offseason? I am sure he was. Something didn't feel right about him last year and I think that if the right deal would have come along the cubs would have gladly sent him packing (if he would waive his NTC). But I'm not sure this move was totally calculated to get him pissed enough to waive his clause. I think it was a move out of desperation because Hendry couldn't find a reliever worth a shit on the market and at that specific time, he and Lou obviously didn't know how effective Marshall could be in the role and how effective Cashner would be coming up and into the 7th inning type role. In their minds, they had to be thinking this was a bandaid for a more severe wound, but maybe, just maybe it would be lightening in a bottle with his skill set and in a role where you need to just be filthy.

Mentally thinking he could handle it...8, 9 years in the league, grow up ass hole. Do what's best for your team. But of course you knew he wouldn't. Regardless, I don't think this was out of spite or malice or anything, it was out of desperation and turning to your long time ace to try and plug a leak until it could be permanently fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The next person that says it wasn't out of malice is going to be told they need to learn to fucking read.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You're the one that planted that seed.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=108194:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108153:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Let me ask you guys a few questions.

On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.

Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On April 21, Zambrano was absolutely the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation. Silva and Gorz's two starts were fucking outstanding. In fact, they deserved the 2-start Cy Young award. They were that good.

I'll set aside Zambrano's emotional volatility for a moment and the reason is simple: you don't make decisions like this based on two starts. You don't give Gorz/Silva/Wells 130 more innings than Zambrano based on two starts. There's your reason.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than his IP, his 2009 season was practically identical to his 2007 season. Did they take Gorz and Silva's 2009 seasons into account at all? Or just their first two starts of the 2010 season?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

AGAIN, Gorz and Silva's 2009 don't enter into it. The ONLY reason Z's 2009 enters into it is because that is the ONLY FUCKING REASON to not yank him from the rotation. 2010 stats clearly showed that Z was the worst. According to you guys, his 2009 stats should have convinced Hendry to overlook his bad start to 2010. I am telling you that Hendry DID look at 2009, and clearly he wasn't impressed. YOU might think his 2009 was sunshine and buttercups, but Hendry, Rothschild and Piniella clearly saw something over the last 2 years that led them to believe moving him to the bullpen wasn't only logical, but NECESSARY in hopes of turning Z around. My guess is that his decreasing velocity, which doesn't necessarily show up in the stats, had a lot to do with it.

Also, I'm not sure the "Z was too crazy to take out of the rotation" guys are wrong, but the idea that we need to build our rotation based on not hurting feelings seems like the kind of things a BAD organization would do, not a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AGAIN, I understand that Gorz and Silva's 2009 didn't enter into the decision. And...that's kind of the problem. The decision was based on two starts in April despite the fact that they sucked total ass in 2008 and 2009. Are they more likely to continue pitching like Walter Johnson based on two starts in April? Or are they more likely to regress to their career averages?

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=108197:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:21 AM:name=Bricklayer)-->QUOTE (Bricklayer @ Jul 27 2010, 10:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108195:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108193:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:12 AM:name=willis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (willis @ Jul 27 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And round and round we go. I don't for a minute think this was a knee jerk type of thing or anything set in motion by malice. I think this was a decision made because the roster that had been put together was top heavy as shit with no protection in the bullpen other than Marmol, and shit knows with his mechanics his arm may fly right off his body.

Was he being shopped last offseason? I am sure he was. Something didn't feel right about him last year and I think that if the right deal would have come along the cubs would have gladly sent him packing (if he would waive his NTC). But I'm not sure this move was totally calculated to get him pissed enough to waive his clause. I think it was a move out of desperation because Hendry couldn't find a reliever worth a shit on the market and at that specific time, he and Lou obviously didn't know how effective Marshall could be in the role and how effective Cashner would be coming up and into the 7th inning type role. In their minds, they had to be thinking this was a bandaid for a more severe wound, but maybe, just maybe it would be lightening in a bottle with his skill set and in a role where you need to just be filthy.

Mentally thinking he could handle it...8, 9 years in the league, grow up ass hole. Do what's best for your team. But of course you knew he wouldn't. Regardless, I don't think this was out of spite or malice or anything, it was out of desperation and turning to your long time ace to try and plug a leak until it could be permanently fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The next person that says it wasn't out of malice is going to be told they need to learn to fucking read.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You're the one that planted that seed.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How many posts ago did I acknowledge that it was hyperbole. Anyone that's still arguing that it wasn't malicious after I recanted that is being an ass.

[willis]

Take it easy I was just making a point onto other points that were made. Just voicinig it from the way I saw it then and see it now, not necessarily going after any of your specific posts. I was simply adding to the discussion and the thoughts that there may have been something bigger and greater behind this move.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=108198:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:22 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108194:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108153:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Let me ask you guys a few questions.

On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.

Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On April 21, Zambrano was absolutely the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation. Silva and Gorz's two starts were fucking outstanding. In fact, they deserved the 2-start Cy Young award. They were that good.

I'll set aside Zambrano's emotional volatility for a moment and the reason is simple: you don't make decisions like this based on two starts. You don't give Gorz/Silva/Wells 130 more innings than Zambrano based on two starts. There's your reason.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than his IP, his 2009 season was practically identical to his 2007 season. Did they take Gorz and Silva's 2009 seasons into account at all? Or just their first two starts of the 2010 season?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

AGAIN, Gorz and Silva's 2009 don't enter into it. The ONLY reason Z's 2009 enters into it is because that is the ONLY FUCKING REASON to not yank him from the rotation. 2010 stats clearly showed that Z was the worst. According to you guys, his 2009 stats should have convinced Hendry to overlook his bad start to 2010. I am telling you that Hendry DID look at 2009, and clearly he wasn't impressed. YOU might think his 2009 was sunshine and buttercups, but Hendry, Rothschild and Piniella clearly saw something over the last 2 years that led them to believe moving him to the bullpen wasn't only logical, but NECESSARY in hopes of turning Z around. My guess is that his decreasing velocity, which doesn't necessarily show up in the stats, had a lot to do with it.

Also, I'm not sure the "Z was too crazy to take out of the rotation" guys are wrong, but the idea that we need to build our rotation based on not hurting feelings seems like the kind of things a BAD organization would do, not a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AGAIN, I understand that Gorz and Silva's 2009 didn't enter into the decision. And...that's kind of the problem. The decision was based on two starts in April despite the fact that they sucked total ass in 2008 and 2009. Are they more likely to continue pitching like Walter Johnson based on two starts in April? Or are they more likely to regress to their career averages?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Holy shit, are you arguing it was a bad decision because, based on 2009 stats, Gorz and Silva COULD have sucked ass since April? Even though they didn't? I mean, they pretty much (especially Silva) DID continue to pitch like Walter Johnson. Yes, it was only 2 starts. And NO, they didn't regress to their career averages. On that specific point, Cubs management did EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING. That either of them could suck ass going forward from now on can't possibly support your argument that they did the wrong thing in April.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=108203:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:39 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108198:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:22 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108194:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108153:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Let me ask you guys a few questions.

On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.

Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On April 21, Zambrano was absolutely the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation. Silva and Gorz's two starts were fucking outstanding. In fact, they deserved the 2-start Cy Young award. They were that good.

I'll set aside Zambrano's emotional volatility for a moment and the reason is simple: you don't make decisions like this based on two starts. You don't give Gorz/Silva/Wells 130 more innings than Zambrano based on two starts. There's your reason.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than his IP, his 2009 season was practically identical to his 2007 season. Did they take Gorz and Silva's 2009 seasons into account at all? Or just their first two starts of the 2010 season?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

AGAIN, Gorz and Silva's 2009 don't enter into it. The ONLY reason Z's 2009 enters into it is because that is the ONLY FUCKING REASON to not yank him from the rotation. 2010 stats clearly showed that Z was the worst. According to you guys, his 2009 stats should have convinced Hendry to overlook his bad start to 2010. I am telling you that Hendry DID look at 2009, and clearly he wasn't impressed. YOU might think his 2009 was sunshine and buttercups, but Hendry, Rothschild and Piniella clearly saw something over the last 2 years that led them to believe moving him to the bullpen wasn't only logical, but NECESSARY in hopes of turning Z around. My guess is that his decreasing velocity, which doesn't necessarily show up in the stats, had a lot to do with it.

Also, I'm not sure the "Z was too crazy to take out of the rotation" guys are wrong, but the idea that we need to build our rotation based on not hurting feelings seems like the kind of things a BAD organization would do, not a good one.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
AGAIN, I understand that Gorz and Silva's 2009 didn't enter into the decision. And...that's kind of the problem. The decision was based on two starts in April despite the fact that they sucked total ass in 2008 and 2009. Are they more likely to continue pitching like Walter Johnson based on two starts in April? Or are they more likely to regress to their career averages?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Holy shit, are you arguing it was a bad decision because, based on 2009 stats, Gorz and Silva COULD have sucked ass since April? Even though they didn't? I mean, they pretty much (especially Silva) DID continue to pitch like Walter Johnson. Yes, it was only 2 starts. And NO, they didn't regress to their career averages. On that specific point, Cubs management did EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING. That either of them could suck ass going forward from now on can't possibly support your argument that they did the wrong thing in April.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are still two months of baseball left. The question remains -- over 32 starts (or 180-200 innings), which pitcher was most likely to put up the better numbers? Silva could easily finish the last two months of the season like Zambrano's first three starts of the season. As could Gorz. The season doesn't end on July 27. Just like it doesn't end on April 21.

[willis]

No, it doesn't end on July 27...but I think I read somewhere over the past couple of days that this team has the highest number of quality starts in baseball? If that is the case it's hard to argue against where the rotation is right now as we speak.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=108206:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:53 AM:name=willis)-->QUOTE (willis @ Jul 27 2010, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->No, it doesn't end on July 27...but I think I read somewhere over the past couple of days that this team has the highest number of quality starts in baseball? If that is the case it's hard to argue against where the rotation is right now as we speak.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that mean it couldn't be better with Z in the rotation?

What Silva and Gorz's relative success doesn't address is the fact that we may have fucked up a talented, expensive (and, yes, batshit crazy) starting pitcher that we still have under contract for a while. Was making a short-sighted decision like this worth what we're certainly going to have to deal with now and down the road with Z?

[willis]

<!--quoteo(post=108209:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:57 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108206:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:53 AM:name=willis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (willis @ Jul 27 2010, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->No, it doesn't end on July 27...but I think I read somewhere over the past couple of days that this team has the highest number of quality starts in baseball? If that is the case it's hard to argue against where the rotation is right now as we speak.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Does that mean it couldn't be better with Z in the rotation?

What Silva and Gorz's relative success doesn't address is the fact that we may have fucked up a talented, expensive (and, yes, batshit crazy) starting pitcher that we still have under contract for a while. Was making a short-sighted decision like this worth what we're certainly going to have to deal with now and down the road with Z?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Would it be better with Z in it? I don't know how it can be better than leading the league in QS...but I would say no, just because I think the guy is on the decline for some reason and he just hasn't been himself it seems for awhile now (physically that is). But I can't answer the question because who the hell really knows. But you can't argue you that Gorz has been balls out starting this year, and that was/would be the guy Z would replace. Now if Lilly does get moved, I have no problem showcasing Z in the rotation until he starts to hurt this team, which hopefully he doesn't.

To your question about the short sighted decision...probably not. But, as I said a few pages ago, it was a lose-lose and the reason the team was in that position is because really, the decision makers didn't trust Marshall yet in that roll and Cashner wasn't seen as ready, which is arguable. I wish that he wasn't as bat shit as he is, because this wasn't a message. This was taking your guy with the best "stuff" and asking him to do the team a favor.

[Coldneck]

I'm pretty sure Z sucks and is done. Am I totally sure? No. And I think that is where the Cubs screwed up. We need to let Z either earn it or not and then make decisions.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=108236:date=Jul 27 2010, 01:13 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 27 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure Z sucks and is done. Am I totally sure? No. And I think that is where the Cubs screwed up. We need to let Z either earn it or not and then make decisions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He'll probably get another shot if/when we trade Lilly. I hope we can get him back to where he should be.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=108236:date=Jul 27 2010, 01:13 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 27 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure Z sucks and is done. Am I totally sure? No. And I think that is where the Cubs screwed up. We need to let Z either earn it or not and then make decisions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for the first statement, that's sort of where I am at this point. This changing roles business doesn't really help anyone figure out his long-term value to the team nor his true trade value should we need to dump him, which looks to be the organization's next move.

[willis]

<!--quoteo(post=108242:date=Jul 27 2010, 01:17 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108236:date=Jul 27 2010, 01:13 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 27 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm pretty sure Z sucks and is done. Am I totally sure? No. And I think that is where the Cubs screwed up. We need to let Z either earn it or not and then make decisions.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except for the first statement, that's sort of where I am at this point. This changing roles business doesn't really help anyone figure out his long-term value to the team nor his true trade value should we need to dump him, which looks to be the organization's next move.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

If this is the club's ultimate goal, which as you said it seems to be, then trading Lilly becomes even more important, if you are going to use his spot to give Z a chance to show his stuff. If Lilly ultimately doesn't get traded, then Z is in mop up duty for the rest of the year unless one of the starters gets hurt. Also, the last thing you want is for any of these guys to be pitxhing with their head over their shoulder wondering (as what happened to Gorz) what happens if I give up a bomb right here? Or if I give up 3 runs this inning? Or walk to many people? Ugh, that would be the worst. God this is a shitty situation.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=108172:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:45 AM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jul 27 2010, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108159:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:37 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 27 2010, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108153:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Let me ask you guys a few questions.

On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.

Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On April 21, Zambrano was absolutely the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation. Silva and Gorz's two starts were fucking outstanding. In fact, they deserved the 2-start Cy Young award. They were that good.

I'll set aside Zambrano's emotional volatility for a moment and the reason is simple: you don't make decisions like this based on two starts. You don't give Gorz/Silva/Wells 130 more innings than Zambrano based on two starts. There's your reason.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than his IP, his 2009 season was practically identical to his 2007 season. Did they take Gorz and Silva's 2009 seasons into account at all? Or just their first two starts of the 2010 season?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


That last line sums it all up for me. Done.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

8th inning was a fucking nightmare. We'd been through at least 2 setup guys with shitty results. The rotation is lights out except for Zambrano, who also happens to have the best "stuff". So you send Z to the bullpen until you can find a veteran releiver for the 8th. Thinking that by that time one of the rotation guys will have come back down to earth (Gorz, Wells) and the move will be made to put Z back in.

Now this would have worked out except that Z wasn't all that great in his relief role, the reliever we ended up getting was Howry, the offense tanked making the whole fucking thing moot, and then when Z came back to the roation he blew a fucking gasket and cussed out one of his teammates (again).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Who's the 8th inning guy now? Was he not on the team back then? And what's to gain from putting a pitcher who had done nothing but start for almost a decade right into the 8th inning role?

[rok]

Olney:
http://twitter.com/Buster_ESPN/status/19689056521
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Heard this: The Cubs have made it clear to other teams that they are ready to move Carlos Zambrano, if anyone is interested.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->