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<!--quoteo(post=108111:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, I just looked this up.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=108132:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A reason not too? He's wound tighter than something that's wound really tight. He was always going to implode as a result of this move. People on this board said so at the time. It contributed to possibly ruining his tenure with the club. It was stupid. Intentional? No..the gaslighting thing was hyperbole. But it was so inevitable that if it wasn't deliberate, it was wantonly obtuse. Zambrano was never, ever going to cope with the move.
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<!--quoteo(post=108132:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108111:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, I just looked this up.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again...exactly. We all know that assumptions are part of opinion, but none of us can pretend we're flies on the clubhouse wall. We always seem content to assume the worst, and give zero benefit to the doubt.
Also...there are always myriad "out of the box" suggestions presented on here. These guys made one. Does anyone think they had any desire to lose Z from the rotation? Do we really think they were working from malice? Come on...
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Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.
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<!--quoteo(post=108149:date=Jul 27 2010, 10:19 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 10:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IIRC he did quitely accept his role change. He didn't freak the funk until after he was back in the rotation. I understand that could have just been the point when it boiled over, but by his own admission his head was fucked up at the time anyway.
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<!--quoteo(post=108149:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wanted Z to waive his NT on April 21st?
Why...did they think we were already out of it by then?
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<!--quoteo(post=108151:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM:name=Rappster)-->QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108149:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wanted Z to waive his NT on April 21st?
Why...did they think we were already out of it by then?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not then and there, but down the road. Come on.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On April 21, Zambrano was absolutely the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation. Silva and Gorz's two starts were fucking outstanding. In fact, they deserved the 2-start Cy Young award. They were that good.
I'll set aside Zambrano's emotional volatility for a moment and the reason is simple: you don't make decisions like this based on two starts. You don't give Gorz/Silva/Wells 130 more innings than Zambrano based on two starts. There's your reason.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than his IP, his 2009 season was practically identical to his 2007 season. Did they take Gorz and Silva's 2009 seasons into account at all? Or just their first two starts of the 2010 season?
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<!--quoteo(post=108147:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM:name=Rappster)-->QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108132:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108111:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, I just looked this up.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again...exactly. We all know that assumptions are part of opinion, but none of us can pretend we're flies on the clubhouse wall. We always seem content to assume the worst, and give zero benefit to the doubt.
Also...there are always myriad "out of the box" suggestions presented on here. These guys made one. Does anyone think they had any desire to lose Z from the rotation? Do we really think they were working from malice? Come on...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the fuck said anything about malice? I doubt anyone thinks the Cubs were doing this just because they didn't like Zambrano. I think they thought it was a good idea. That's what scares me, because it wasn't a good idea. It was stupid.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=108152:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:28 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108151:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108149:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wanted Z to waive his NT on April 21st?
Why...did they think we were already out of it by then?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not then and there, but down the road. Come on.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No...you come on. Don't make me do a Khrushchev shoe banging...
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<!--quoteo(post=108156:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM:name=Rappster)-->QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108152:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:28 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108151:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108149:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wanted Z to waive his NT on April 21st?
Why...did they think we were already out of it by then?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not then and there, but down the road. Come on.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No...you come on. Don't make me do a Khrushchev shoe banging...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't act as though I am the only person speculating this. There were rumors that he might be shopped going back to last offseason, so don't get stuck on that April date.
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<!--quoteo(post=108154:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108147:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108132:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108111:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, I just looked this up.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again...exactly. We all know that assumptions are part of opinion, but none of us can pretend we're flies on the clubhouse wall. We always seem content to assume the worst, and give zero benefit to the doubt.
Also...there are always myriad "out of the box" suggestions presented on here. These guys made one. Does anyone think they had any desire to lose Z from the rotation? Do we really think they were working from malice? Come on...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the fuck said anything about malice? I doubt anyone thinks the Cubs were doing this just because they didn't like Zambrano. I think they thought it was a good idea. That's what scares me, because it wasn't a good idea. It was stupid.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straw made the hyperbolic claim that they were gaslighting him, that's where the malice statement comes from.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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<!--quoteo(post=108153:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 27 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. On April 21, Zambrano was absolutely the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation. Silva and Gorz's two starts were fucking outstanding. In fact, they deserved the 2-start Cy Young award. They were that good.
I'll set aside Zambrano's emotional volatility for a moment and the reason is simple: you don't make decisions like this based on two starts. You don't give Gorz/Silva/Wells 130 more innings than Zambrano based on two starts. There's your reason.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than his IP, his 2009 season was practically identical to his 2007 season. Did they take Gorz and Silva's 2009 seasons into account at all? Or just their first two starts of the 2010 season?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That last line sums it all up for me. Done.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=108157:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:34 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108156:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108152:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:28 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108151:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108149:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 27 2010, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Only if management was trying to get Z to waive his NT clause by demoting him. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but does anyone believe that Z would gladly step down and quietly accept this role change? Who is being unrealistic now? This isn't fantasy baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wanted Z to waive his NT on April 21st?
Why...did they think we were already out of it by then?
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Not then and there, but down the road. Come on.
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No...you come on. Don't make me do a Khrushchev shoe banging...
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Don't act as though I am the only person speculating this. There were rumors that he might be shopped going back to last offseason, so don't get stuck on that April date.
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Wait a minute...you don't think the rules change once we're inside the season?
And...I'm really just trying to be clear...you're speculating that they were trying to set up a possible trade of their would-be ace, at the possible expense of the season?
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<!--quoteo(post=108158:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:36 AM:name=Bricklayer)-->QUOTE (Bricklayer @ Jul 27 2010, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108154:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108147:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108132:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108111:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, I just looked this up.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
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Again...exactly. We all know that assumptions are part of opinion, but none of us can pretend we're flies on the clubhouse wall. We always seem content to assume the worst, and give zero benefit to the doubt.
Also...there are always myriad "out of the box" suggestions presented on here. These guys made one. Does anyone think they had any desire to lose Z from the rotation? Do we really think they were working from malice? Come on...
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Who the fuck said anything about malice? I doubt anyone thinks the Cubs were doing this just because they didn't like Zambrano. I think they thought it was a good idea. That's what scares me, because it wasn't a good idea. It was stupid.
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Straw made the hyperbolic claim that they were gaslighting him, that's where the malice statement comes from.
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Oh, I don't know what gaslighting means.
My sincerest and most heartfelt apologies to Rapp, my buddy.
Wang.
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