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For those that keep talking about how Zambrano has been fine until this year, why was he rated as the 67th overall starting pitcher by ESPN coming into this year? His was their preseason outlook for him:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->2010 Outlook: Now 28 years old, Zambrano's career (predictably) has been trending downward the past couple seasons, right at a time in which one might think he should be offering fantasy owners premium statistics. Probably because of years of hefty innings totals and bloated pitch counts, especially during the Dusty Baker era (he averaged 108.9 pitches per start from 2003-07), Zambrano's stuff has lost some of its luster the past two seasons. Consider that his average fastball velocity has declined every season since 2004 (from 92.9 mph then to 91.2 in 2009), and he threw fewer fastballs than ever last season. Take into account also that his innings per start has declined every season since 2005 (from 6.77 then to 6.05 in 2009), and he's shifting from more of a ground ball pitcher to almost neutral, which again hints that his pitches have lost some of their zip. Zambrano also took 23 percent of his total batters faced to three-ball counts, 28th-most among pitchers with 1,500-plus pitches thrown, according to Inside Edge. That stat hints that he's almost afraid to challenge hitters these days. Oh, and for the third time in the past four years, he averaged more than four walks per nine innings. Despite that, Zambrano finished with a sub-four ERA for the eighth consecutive season, but those days might soon be coming to a close. There's a steep downside with him because of injury and declining performance, but don't avoid him entirely. Don't consider him a trusted part of your rotation, either.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--quoteo(post=107587:date=Jul 23 2010, 03:03 PM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 23 2010, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->For those that keep talking about how Zambrano has been fine until this year, why was he rated as the 67th overall starting pitcher by ESPN coming into this year? His was their preseason outlook for him:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->2010 Outlook: Now 28 years old, Zambrano's career (predictably) has been trending downward the past couple seasons, right at a time in which one might think he should be offering fantasy owners premium statistics. Probably because of years of hefty innings totals and bloated pitch counts, especially during the Dusty Baker era (he averaged 108.9 pitches per start from 2003-07), Zambrano's stuff has lost some of its luster the past two seasons. Consider that his average fastball velocity has declined every season since 2004 (from 92.9 mph then to 91.2 in 2009), and he threw fewer fastballs than ever last season. Take into account also that his innings per start has declined every season since 2005 (from 6.77 then to 6.05 in 2009), and he's shifting from more of a ground ball pitcher to almost neutral, which again hints that his pitches have lost some of their zip. Zambrano also took 23 percent of his total batters faced to three-ball counts, 28th-most among pitchers with 1,500-plus pitches thrown, according to Inside Edge. That stat hints that he's almost afraid to challenge hitters these days. Oh, and for the third time in the past four years, he averaged more than four walks per nine innings. Despite that, Zambrano finished with a sub-four ERA for the eighth consecutive season, but those days might soon be coming to a close. There's a steep downside with him because of injury and declining performance, but don't avoid him entirely. Don't consider him a trusted part of your rotation, either.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying he was "fine", which no one is doing, and speculating that he was injured over the past 2 seasons as his mechanics have suffered and velocity declined (which that quote also implies) are two completely different things.
I'm still guessing that people are selectively reading stuff from this and other threads, but I don't wanna come off as a total dick here.
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I don't care where he was ranked. He had a 3.77 ERA. He walked some batters, no doubt, but he only gave up 10 home runs in 169 innings. He didn't suck last year. Not even close.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=107587:date=Jul 23 2010, 03:03 PM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 23 2010, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->For those that keep talking about how Zambrano has been fine until this year, why was he rated as the 67th overall starting pitcher by ESPN coming into this year? His was their preseason outlook for him:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->2010 Outlook: Now 28 years old, Zambrano's career (predictably) has been trending downward the past couple seasons, right at a time in which one might think he should be offering fantasy owners premium statistics. Probably because of years of hefty innings totals and bloated pitch counts, especially during the Dusty Baker era (he averaged 108.9 pitches per start from 2003-07), Zambrano's stuff has lost some of its luster the past two seasons. Consider that his average fastball velocity has declined every season since 2004 (from 92.9 mph then to 91.2 in 2009), and he threw fewer fastballs than ever last season. Take into account also that his innings per start has declined every season since 2005 (from 6.77 then to 6.05 in 2009), and he's shifting from more of a ground ball pitcher to almost neutral, which again hints that his pitches have lost some of their zip. Zambrano also took 23 percent of his total batters faced to three-ball counts, 28th-most among pitchers with 1,500-plus pitches thrown, according to Inside Edge. That stat hints that he's almost afraid to challenge hitters these days. Oh, and for the third time in the past four years, he averaged more than four walks per nine innings. Despite that, Zambrano finished with a sub-four ERA for the eighth consecutive season, but those days might soon be coming to a close. There's a steep downside with him because of injury and declining performance, but don't avoid him entirely. Don't consider him a trusted part of your rotation, either.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a lot of contradictory statements int here.
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Tribune on the run the bum out of town on a rail camp.
After Cubs and Sox win, trib's front page of sports section includes 'Z isn't up to speed' article and 'Z mum till apology' article on page 5 Cubs page.
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Wow, Phil Rogers is such a retard and his love for the Sox is disgusting.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sc-sp...3.column?page=2
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Proposed trade for next off-season: Carlos Zambrano to the White Sox for Mark Teahen and Scott Linebrink.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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<!--quoteo(post=107763:date=Jul 25 2010, 10:33 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jul 25 2010, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wow, Phil Rogers is such a retard and his love for the Sox is disgusting.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sc-sp...3.column?page=2
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Proposed trade for next off-season: Carlos Zambrano to the White Sox for Mark Teahen and Scott Linebrink.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read that in the LA Times this morning, what does that even mean? I really don't understand the underlying message.
Fat Bastard is an immensely obese, hardly able to walk (weighing a metric ton) gardener and henchman hailing from Scotland. His extreme size endows Fat Bastard with super-human strength as exhibited by his prowess in the Sumo ring from Goldmember. This makes him a formidable enemy for Austin Powers. Fat Bastard is noted for his foul temper, his frequent flatulence, his vulgar and revolting bad manners and his unusual eating habits, which include taste for Human infants (which he calls "the other other white meat") or anything that looks like a baby, e.g. small people. Fat Bastard has been a regular at Cub games since the early 80's when he tried several times (unsuccessfully) to eat the visiting San Diego Chicken.
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<!--quoteo(post=107779:date=Jul 25 2010, 06:20 PM:name=MW4)-->QUOTE (MW4 @ Jul 25 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=107763:date=Jul 25 2010, 10:33 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jul 25 2010, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wow, Phil Rogers is such a retard and his love for the Sox is disgusting.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sc-sp...3.column?page=2
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Proposed trade for next off-season: Carlos Zambrano to the White Sox for Mark Teahen and Scott Linebrink.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I read that in the LA Times this morning, what does that even mean? I really don't understand the underlying message.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It means that Rogers isn't a real journalist.
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<!--quoteo(post=107572:date=Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->1. Zambrano struggled early in the season and was banished to the bullpen despite the fact that he's been a solid pitcher his entire career.
2. Gorzallaney has not been a solid pitcher his entire career, Silva was coming off back to back terrible seasons, Wells was in his second year. They stayed in the rotation.
3. Zambrano has a history of volitility.
4. Despite the fact Zambrano has gotten progressively worse thoughout his career, he's still been one of the best pitchers in the NL.
Synopsis: Zambrano earned the right, through quality and quantity of work, to be able to work his problems out early in the season. Couple that with the fact he's completely insane, and you have to wonder what the fuck was going through Lou and Hendry's minds when they made the retarded decision to put him in the bullpen. Hendry and Lou took a bad situation and blew it to hell.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the ERAs of the five starters at the time Lilly came back: 2.49 2.60 2.40 0.95 and <b>7.45</b>.
What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? It doesn't matter if you perform well. If you make more money, we're going to stick with you? Which is essentially the way things usually work, and we all complain about it. See Fuk getting starts over Colvin, etc.
Once again, at the time we had been through about 3 or 4 8th inning guys IIRC. Throw in the fact that Zambrano's stuff was best suited for relief work and it made sense to me at the time. That's all I'm saying.
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<!--quoteo(post=107949:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:35 AM:name=vitaminB)-->QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jul 26 2010, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=107572:date=Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->1. Zambrano struggled early in the season and was banished to the bullpen despite the fact that he's been a solid pitcher his entire career.
2. Gorzallaney has not been a solid pitcher his entire career, Silva was coming off back to back terrible seasons, Wells was in his second year. They stayed in the rotation.
3. Zambrano has a history of volitility.
4. Despite the fact Zambrano has gotten progressively worse thoughout his career, he's still been one of the best pitchers in the NL.
Synopsis: Zambrano earned the right, through quality and quantity of work, to be able to work his problems out early in the season. Couple that with the fact he's completely insane, and you have to wonder what the fuck was going through Lou and Hendry's minds when they made the retarded decision to put him in the bullpen. Hendry and Lou took a bad situation and blew it to hell.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the ERAs of the five starters at the time Lilly came back: 2.49 2.60 2.40 0.95 and <b>7.45</b>.
What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? It doesn't matter if you perform well. If you make more money, we're going to stick with you? Which is essentially the way things usually work, and we all complain about it. See Fuk getting starts over Colvin, etc.
Once again, at the time we had been through about 3 or 4 8th inning guys IIRC. Throw in the fact that Zambrano's stuff was best suited for relief work and it made sense to me at the time. That's all I'm saying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are the career ERA's? What were the ERA's of those same pitchers the year before? When did Lily come back, May? Was that enough time to shitcan their best pitcher over the last 6 years?
What kind of message did the Cubs send the team? That even though you've been an all star multiple times, the opening day starter multiple times, just thrown a no-hitter less than two years ago, and been one of the top 5 pitchers in the National League, we're gonna demote you if you don't get off to a good start? Is that the kind of message we need to send?
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=107960:date=Jul 26 2010, 12:39 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 26 2010, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=107949:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:35 AM:name=vitaminB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jul 26 2010, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=107572:date=Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->1. Zambrano struggled early in the season and was banished to the bullpen despite the fact that he's been a solid pitcher his entire career.
2. Gorzallaney has not been a solid pitcher his entire career, Silva was coming off back to back terrible seasons, Wells was in his second year. They stayed in the rotation.
3. Zambrano has a history of volitility.
4. Despite the fact Zambrano has gotten progressively worse thoughout his career, he's still been one of the best pitchers in the NL.
Synopsis: Zambrano earned the right, through quality and quantity of work, to be able to work his problems out early in the season. Couple that with the fact he's completely insane, and you have to wonder what the fuck was going through Lou and Hendry's minds when they made the retarded decision to put him in the bullpen. Hendry and Lou took a bad situation and blew it to hell.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the ERAs of the five starters at the time Lilly came back: 2.49 2.60 2.40 0.95 and <b>7.45</b>.
What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? It doesn't matter if you perform well. If you make more money, we're going to stick with you? Which is essentially the way things usually work, and we all complain about it. See Fuk getting starts over Colvin, etc.
Once again, at the time we had been through about 3 or 4 8th inning guys IIRC. Throw in the fact that Zambrano's stuff was best suited for relief work and it made sense to me at the time. That's all I'm saying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are the career ERA's? What were the ERA's of those same pitchers the year before? When did Lily come back, May? Was that enough time to shitcan their best pitcher over the last 6 years?
What kind of message did the Cubs send the team? That even though you've been an all star multiple times, the opening day starter multiple times, just thrown a no-hitter less than two years ago, and been one of the top 5 pitchers in the National League, we're gonna demote you if you don't get off to a good start? Is that the kind of message we need to send?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen to that.
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I hate when people throw out stats, but, if you throw out his opening day start, Zambrano had a 4.00 ERA in his other 3 starts before going to the pen.
It was a stupid decision.
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If bad starts were the main criteria for being tossed to bullpen mop-up duty, then the entire Sox rotation should have been cast aside by early May, and then so much for their 26-5 run. Not to mention, a ton of veteran SPs start out very rusty early on and get better as the season goes on. But I guess patience only applies to the non-douche subset of the Cubs organization.
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<!--quoteo(post=107960:date=Jul 26 2010, 01:39 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 26 2010, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=107949:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:35 AM:name=vitaminB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vitaminB @ Jul 26 2010, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=107572:date=Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 23 2010, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->1. Zambrano struggled early in the season and was banished to the bullpen despite the fact that he's been a solid pitcher his entire career.
2. Gorzallaney has not been a solid pitcher his entire career, Silva was coming off back to back terrible seasons, Wells was in his second year. They stayed in the rotation.
3. Zambrano has a history of volitility.
4. Despite the fact Zambrano has gotten progressively worse thoughout his career, he's still been one of the best pitchers in the NL.
Synopsis: Zambrano earned the right, through quality and quantity of work, to be able to work his problems out early in the season. Couple that with the fact he's completely insane, and you have to wonder what the fuck was going through Lou and Hendry's minds when they made the retarded decision to put him in the bullpen. Hendry and Lou took a bad situation and blew it to hell.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the ERAs of the five starters at the time Lilly came back: 2.49 2.60 2.40 0.95 and <b>7.45</b>.
What kind of message does that send to the rest of the team? It doesn't matter if you perform well. If you make more money, we're going to stick with you? Which is essentially the way things usually work, and we all complain about it. See Fuk getting starts over Colvin, etc.
Once again, at the time we had been through about 3 or 4 8th inning guys IIRC. Throw in the fact that Zambrano's stuff was best suited for relief work and it made sense to me at the time. That's all I'm saying.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are the career ERA's? What were the ERA's of those same pitchers the year before? When did Lily come back, May? Was that enough time to shitcan their best pitcher over the last 6 years?
What kind of message did the Cubs send the team? That even though you've been an all star multiple times, the opening day starter multiple times, just thrown a no-hitter less than two years ago, and been one of the top 5 pitchers in the National League, we're gonna demote you if you don't get off to a good start? Is that the kind of message we need to send?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Honestly, you think Zambrano is/was untouchable? That his track record elevates him to the status of a superstar somehow? I understand he's being paid like one. But that contract was about potential, and he has not lived up to that potential. It's questionable that he ever will.
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Its laughable to act like Zambrano just had a bad start. The downward spiral had begun long ago.
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