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Imagine being Zanbrano. I don't mean a pitcher with his talent, I mean <i>Zambrano</i>...you know, high strung, emotional, passionate, anger issues...easily frustrated and derailed <i>and</i> talented. Now imagine being him...and pitching with this team's offense and defense to count on. What you'd get is exactly what we got.
I'm not excusing him and he sure could have smarter and called out his team on a day when he wasn't throwing BP in the first inning....but this was inevitable.
Now picture him with another year or two of growing up and pitching for a team that plays solid behind him and gives him all kinds of offense. We may be well rid of him but if he finds the right home, he wins a Cy.
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<!--quoteo(post=103376:date=Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Imagine being Zanbrano. I don't mean a pitcher with his talent, I mean <i>Zambrano</i>...you know, high strung, emotional, passionate, anger issues...easily frustrated and derailed <i>and</i> talented. Now imagine being him...and pitching with this team's offense and defense to count on. What you'd get is exactly what we got.
I'm not excusing him and he sure could have smarter and called out his team on a day when he wasn't throwing BP in the first inning....but this was inevitable.
Now picture him with another year or two of growing up and pitching for a team that plays solid behind him and gives him all kinds of offense. We may be well rid of him but if he finds the right home, he wins a Cy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that's some apologist bullshit.
This is not some silly theory that's unsupported and deserves being mocked by photos of Xena. ![[Image: ITgoyeg.png]](http://i.imgur.com/ITgoyeg.png)
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The Cubs have had a history, in recent times, of taking a bad/uncomfortable/worrisome situation and amplifying it enormously. It just seems that every time there's a bump in the road, the Cubs piss themsleves and end up looking ridiculous/alienating people/diminishing player values. There has to be a better way to handle problems and difficulties and I think that needs to be done by changing leadership and addressing specific players next.
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<!--quoteo(post=103381:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:20 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 28 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Cubs have had a history, in recent times, of taking a bad/uncomfortable/worrisome situation and amplifying it enormously. It just seems that every time there's a bump in the road, the Cubs piss themsleves and end up looking ridiculous/alienating people/diminishing player values. There has to be a better way to handle problems and difficulties and I think that needs to be done by changing leadership and addressing specific players next.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who though? That's what I'm trying to get out of you.
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I won't make excuses for Z, but he's been a ticking time-bomb here for the better part of 2 seasons. I have no idea what could have been done to handle him better, but it seems to have become almost a full-time job recently for Lou and Hendry. Was he mismanaged in many instances? You could definitely argue that, but in the end it was probably just a matter of time before Z's frustration over his diminishing skills would boil over, and he was never going to be mature enough to deal with it in a professional way. It is clear that he needs a change of scenery, and even if we had better management in place right now, the relationship can't be patched up.
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<!--quoteo(post=103373:date=Jun 28 2010, 10:59 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 28 2010, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103360:date=Jun 28 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103356:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:55 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 28 2010, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103355:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:52 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103354:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:47 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 28 2010, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103351:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:38 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103320:date=Jun 27 2010, 09:03 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 27 2010, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->I think the people trying to put together a huge list of problems the Cubs have had are looking too much into this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the people who don't see a pattern of mismanagement are missing the point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with this is people keep saying "mismanagement by the Cubs". There has been a great number of people that have been included in Cubs decision making. We've had three different people/entities that owned the Cubs in the time frame you're talking about. Two different managers. Two presidents of baseball operations. Also, plenty of other positions have been rotated around. You seem to be placing blame on a Cubs organization that has not been the same Cubs organization.
The only constant that I can see is Hendry. Maybe he's the one causing these guys to act out. Feel free to say so, but you're just pointing your finger in a vague direction though when you say the Cubs as an organization is at fault.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scarey, you're Ricketts, how do fix this? What's your plan? Every time someone suggests that Hendry or Lou be fired, every time soeone criticizes the organization, every time someone suggests change, you're the first one to defend Hendry/Lou/Cubs.
So I ask you, if you're the Ricketts family, how do you get this back on track?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already advocated a new manager and GM for next season. Numerous times.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why do you defend the manager and the GM every time someone rips them? The very manager and GM you want fired....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I don't find it necessary to go to the extreme of putting our current manager down, saying he's senile, crazy, or doesn't care in order to advocate a change.
I also find it difficult to criticize decisions after the matter when the decision was almost universally accepted when they were made. When I see people criticizing the Zambrano contract for instance, I personally cannot speak out about it because I and many others felt it was a good deal at the time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I don't remember seeing a whole lot of people complaining about Zambrano's contract. What I do see is people complaining about the number of outbursts this team has had since Hendry has been the GM and his poor handling of these outbursts. This complaining is warranted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was using that as an example because it's current and I've heard plenty of people (not specificially SOI posters) complain about his contract. If you want something relevant to SOI, how about Kosuke Fukudome? Everyone was thrilled when we signed him, yet some blame Hendry for giving him too much money now.
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<!--quoteo(post=103378:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:08 AM:name=Kid)-->QUOTE (Kid @ Jun 28 2010, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103376:date=Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Imagine being Zanbrano. I don't mean a pitcher with his talent, I mean <i>Zambrano</i>...you know, high strung, emotional, passionate, anger issues...easily frustrated and derailed <i>and</i> talented. Now imagine being him...and pitching with this team's offense and defense to count on. What you'd get is exactly what we got.
I'm not excusing him and he sure could have smarter and called out his team on a day when he wasn't throwing BP in the first inning....but this was inevitable.
Now picture him with another year or two of growing up and pitching for a team that plays solid behind him and gives him all kinds of offense. We may be well rid of him but if he finds the right home, he wins a Cy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that's some apologist bullshit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hell it is. What I'm saying is that if he winds up playing someplace that doesn't trigger all his infantilism, he will be successful.
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<!--quoteo(post=103384:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:28 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103381:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:20 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 28 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Cubs have had a history, in recent times, of taking a bad/uncomfortable/worrisome situation and amplifying it enormously. It just seems that every time there's a bump in the road, the Cubs piss themsleves and end up looking ridiculous/alienating people/diminishing player values. There has to be a better way to handle problems and difficulties and I think that needs to be done by changing leadership and addressing specific players next.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who though? That's what I'm trying to get out of you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hendry and Lou now. Hendry, Baker, McPhail, et al. previously. There's obviously some other dipshits behind the scenes that have helped perpetrate the stupidity that's been going on for the better part of a decade. Institutionally, it's obvious that there's little control. A philosphy change needs to happen if this team is ever gonna be anything but a laughing stock and an afterthought.
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<!--quoteo(post=103389:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:43 AM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ Jun 28 2010, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103378:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:08 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Jun 28 2010, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103376:date=Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Imagine being Zanbrano. I don't mean a pitcher with his talent, I mean <i>Zambrano</i>...you know, high strung, emotional, passionate, anger issues...easily frustrated and derailed <i>and</i> talented. Now imagine being him...and pitching with this team's offense and defense to count on. What you'd get is exactly what we got.
I'm not excusing him and he sure could have smarter and called out his team on a day when he wasn't throwing BP in the first inning....but this was inevitable.
Now picture him with another year or two of growing up and pitching for a team that plays solid behind him and gives him all kinds of offense. We may be well rid of him but if he finds the right home, he wins a Cy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that's some apologist bullshit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hell it is. What I'm saying is that if he winds up playing someplace that doesn't trigger all his infantilism, he will be successful.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that's true for ol' Milton as well?
I used to like Z, but he's just a big baby. I'm not sure if he'll ever change, regardless of where he plays. I highly doubt it.
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<!--quoteo(post=103392:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:46 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 28 2010, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103384:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:28 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103381:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:20 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 28 2010, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Cubs have had a history, in recent times, of taking a bad/uncomfortable/worrisome situation and amplifying it enormously. It just seems that every time there's a bump in the road, the Cubs piss themsleves and end up looking ridiculous/alienating people/diminishing player values. There has to be a better way to handle problems and difficulties and I think that needs to be done by changing leadership and addressing specific players next.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who though? That's what I'm trying to get out of you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hendry and Lou now. Hendry, Baker, McPhail, et al. previously. There's obviously some other dipshits behind the scenes that have helped perpetrate the stupidity that's been going on for the better part of a decade. Institutionally, it's obvious that there's little control. A philosphy change needs to happen if this team is ever gonna be anything but a laughing stock and an afterthought.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's all I was getting at.
Do you believe the Cubs have gone with the same philosophy since Hendry's tenure started? What exactly do you believe that philosophy to be?
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<!--quoteo(post=103393:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:48 AM:name=jeffy)-->QUOTE (jeffy @ Jun 28 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103389:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:43 AM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Jun 28 2010, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103378:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:08 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Jun 28 2010, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103376:date=Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Jun 28 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Imagine being Zanbrano. I don't mean a pitcher with his talent, I mean <i>Zambrano</i>...you know, high strung, emotional, passionate, anger issues...easily frustrated and derailed <i>and</i> talented. Now imagine being him...and pitching with this team's offense and defense to count on. What you'd get is exactly what we got.
I'm not excusing him and he sure could have smarter and called out his team on a day when he wasn't throwing BP in the first inning....but this was inevitable.
Now picture him with another year or two of growing up and pitching for a team that plays solid behind him and gives him all kinds of offense. We may be well rid of him but if he finds the right home, he wins a Cy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry but that's some apologist bullshit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The hell it is. What I'm saying is that if he winds up playing someplace that doesn't trigger all his infantilism, he will be successful.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So that's true for ol' Milton as well?
I used to like Z, but he's just a big baby. I'm not sure if he'll ever change, regardless of where he plays. I highly doubt it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it's the same. I think Bradley's nuts. His thought processes are pathological. I think Z is, well...a big baby. I think the difference is meaningful. I don't think he can be 'fixed' but I think he will change. Time's run out for that to happen here. When he's successful down the road, I'm not going to bitch about the mistake of getting rid of him. It's not a mistake and when he turns it around, that won't make it a mistake. He does need a change of scenery...and to finish adolescence. I do wish other people besides Hendry and Piniella were managing the situation.
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<!--quoteo(post=103388:date=Jun 28 2010, 11:36 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103373:date=Jun 28 2010, 10:59 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 28 2010, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103360:date=Jun 28 2010, 09:29 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 09:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103356:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:55 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 28 2010, 08:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103355:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:52 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103354:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:47 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 28 2010, 08:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103351:date=Jun 28 2010, 08:38 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 28 2010, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103320:date=Jun 27 2010, 09:03 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 27 2010, 09:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->I think the people trying to put together a huge list of problems the Cubs have had are looking too much into this.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think the people who don't see a pattern of mismanagement are missing the point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My problem with this is people keep saying "mismanagement by the Cubs". There has been a great number of people that have been included in Cubs decision making. We've had three different people/entities that owned the Cubs in the time frame you're talking about. Two different managers. Two presidents of baseball operations. Also, plenty of other positions have been rotated around. You seem to be placing blame on a Cubs organization that has not been the same Cubs organization.
The only constant that I can see is Hendry. Maybe he's the one causing these guys to act out. Feel free to say so, but you're just pointing your finger in a vague direction though when you say the Cubs as an organization is at fault.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Scarey, you're Ricketts, how do fix this? What's your plan? Every time someone suggests that Hendry or Lou be fired, every time soeone criticizes the organization, every time someone suggests change, you're the first one to defend Hendry/Lou/Cubs.
So I ask you, if you're the Ricketts family, how do you get this back on track?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've already advocated a new manager and GM for next season. Numerous times.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then why do you defend the manager and the GM every time someone rips them? The very manager and GM you want fired....
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because I don't find it necessary to go to the extreme of putting our current manager down, saying he's senile, crazy, or doesn't care in order to advocate a change.
I also find it difficult to criticize decisions after the matter when the decision was almost universally accepted when they were made. When I see people criticizing the Zambrano contract for instance, I personally cannot speak out about it because I and many others felt it was a good deal at the time.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I don't remember seeing a whole lot of people complaining about Zambrano's contract. What I do see is people complaining about the number of outbursts this team has had since Hendry has been the GM and his poor handling of these outbursts. This complaining is warranted.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was using that as an example because it's current and I've heard plenty of people (not specificially SOI posters) complain about his contract. If you want something relevant to SOI, how about Kosuke Fukudome? Everyone was thrilled when we signed him, yet some blame Hendry for giving him too much money now.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was never sold on Fukudome from the getgo, so I guess I can rip that one. I've always had a mistrust of Japanese ballplayers.
Wang.
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I think there is a key difference between bradley and z. I think bradley is genuinely mentally ill and has seriouis emotional issues. I tend to feel sorry for him. Z is crazy but in a more conentional hothead, immature sense.
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Shit...I need to get a faster phone...
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<!--quoteo(post=103405:date=Jun 28 2010, 12:08 PM:name=dk123)-->QUOTE (dk123 @ Jun 28 2010, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Shit...I need to get a faster phone...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
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