Zambrano

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=103296:date=Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm sure it was that simple. That's why his teammates are throwing him under the bus today, and why Lou and Jim are basically telling the world that Z is a huge asshole that they can't wait to get rid of.

Obviously there's more to it that we can't see on the video.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

There clearly is more to it. I agree. Do you disagree though about the events being misrepresented?

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=103296:date=Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm sure it was that simple. That's why his teammates are throwing him under the bus today, and why Lou and Jim are basically telling the world that Z is a huge asshole that they can't wait to get rid of.

Obviously there's more to it that we can't see on the video.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure there is. Like when they moved him to the bullpen originally to piss him off enough to want to waive his no trade clause. If someone is such a prick and terrible teammate, don't sign him to a $92 M deal then. Carlos hasn't changed in the past year (other then pitching worse), he's always been an asshole, a crazy fucker, and a hot head. I've always said if he was on another team, I'd fucking hate him.

[MrSheps]

<!--quoteo(post=103298:date=Jun 27 2010, 05:01 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 27 2010, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103296:date=Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm sure it was that simple. That's why his teammates are throwing him under the bus today, and why Lou and Jim are basically telling the world that Z is a huge asshole that they can't wait to get rid of.

Obviously there's more to it that we can't see on the video.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure there is. Like when they moved him to the bullpen originally to piss him off enough to want to waive his no trade clause. If someone is such a prick and terrible teammate, don't sign him to a $92 M deal then. Carlos hasn't changed in the past year (other then pitching worse), he's always been an asshole, a crazy fucker, and a hot head. I've always said if he was on another team, I'd fucking hate him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I think this is a good point. I think the Cubs end up looking like idiots because by now overeating to the Z blow-up they're doing another Milton Bradley, another Sammy leaving the game thing. You know what you've got when you sign these guys, or at least you should. If you're going to treat and react to them one way if/when they produce, and in a totally different way when they're not producing, you're sending out a message that you don't know what the hell you're doing. Is it important that guys are good teammates and are sane or not? If the answer is that it's only important if they're sucking, that puts you in a weird gray area where you look like you have no idea what you're doing.

[Lance]

<!--quoteo(post=103299:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:14 PM:name=MrSheps)-->QUOTE (MrSheps @ Jun 27 2010, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103298:date=Jun 27 2010, 05:01 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 27 2010, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103296:date=Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm sure it was that simple. That's why his teammates are throwing him under the bus today, and why Lou and Jim are basically telling the world that Z is a huge asshole that they can't wait to get rid of.

Obviously there's more to it that we can't see on the video.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure there is. Like when they moved him to the bullpen originally to piss him off enough to want to waive his no trade clause. If someone is such a prick and terrible teammate, don't sign him to a $92 M deal then. Carlos hasn't changed in the past year (other then pitching worse), he's always been an asshole, a crazy fucker, and a hot head. I've always said if he was on another team, I'd fucking hate him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I think this is a good point. I think the Cubs end up looking like idiots because by now overeating to the Z blow-up they're doing another Milton Bradley, another Sammy leaving the game thing. You know what you've got when you sign these guys, or at least you should. If you're going to treat and react to them one way if/when they produce, and in a totally different way when they're not producing, you're sending out a message that you don't know what the hell you're doing. Is it important that guys are good teammates and are sane or not? If the answer is that it's only important if they're sucking, that puts you in a weird gray area where you look like you have no idea what you're doing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Am I just so Cubs centered that I don't recall these types of things happening on other teams?

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=103300:date=Jun 27 2010, 07:16 PM:name=Lance)-->QUOTE (Lance @ Jun 27 2010, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103299:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:14 PM:name=MrSheps)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MrSheps @ Jun 27 2010, 08:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103298:date=Jun 27 2010, 05:01 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 27 2010, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103296:date=Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 27 2010, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm sure it was that simple. That's why his teammates are throwing him under the bus today, and why Lou and Jim are basically telling the world that Z is a huge asshole that they can't wait to get rid of.

Obviously there's more to it that we can't see on the video.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure there is. Like when they moved him to the bullpen originally to piss him off enough to want to waive his no trade clause. If someone is such a prick and terrible teammate, don't sign him to a $92 M deal then. Carlos hasn't changed in the past year (other then pitching worse), he's always been an asshole, a crazy fucker, and a hot head. I've always said if he was on another team, I'd fucking hate him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I think this is a good point. I think the Cubs end up looking like idiots because by now overeating to the Z blow-up they're doing another Milton Bradley, another Sammy leaving the game thing. You know what you've got when you sign these guys, or at least you should. If you're going to treat and react to them one way if/when they produce, and in a totally different way when they're not producing, you're sending out a message that you don't know what the hell you're doing. Is it important that guys are good teammates and are sane or not? If the answer is that it's only important if they're sucking, that puts you in a weird gray area where you look like you have no idea what you're doing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Am I just so Cubs centered that I don't recall these types of things happening on other teams?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They don't, not with this frequency.

[dk123]

The more I think about this, the more I think it is an organizational problem. In addition to the players Ruby mentioned, there was also the whole thing with Steve Stone. I am not defending Zambrano's actions, but it seems that there has been a pattern of an inability to deal with difficult or struggling players well over the last several years. Ultimately, the blame falls on Hendry and whoever has been the manager at the time. Hendry is signing these people, and then, when shit happens, it becomes way too public. When a player underperforms, it is obvious to everyone...it's not something you can hide. However, you can deal with these problems in a less public manner, instead of blowing them up to the press. I think that Hendry and Pinella have acted just as childishly as Zambrano in a way. Also, its hard for me to believe that there aren't a ton of difficult personalities all over the league. I think dealing with these personalities is part of the territory of the way the league is now, with long term guaranteed contracts, and such. Mt feeling is that guys like Hendry and Pinella are sort of old school, but when the players are really the ones running the show, that doesn't seem to work that well. Sure there are guys like Bobby Cox, but I have a feeling, that in spite of seeming a hard ass, his ability to manage personalities is pretty damn good. I really think a GM/Manager change is needed way more than dumping players.

[funkster]

I saw somewhere that Zambrano told a Suntimes reporter that he only did it to fire the team up and that Lee took it personally....that he was misunderstood.

[Kid]

The events of Friday, in and of themselves, are being blown out of proportion.

BUT:

1. I absolutely agree with Ace's point that, given the reaction by Lou, Hendry, and his teammates, there was a lot more going on than just the dugout incident.

2. I view this as the last straw with Zambrano. Let's not forget what caused the fight with Barrett. He got in Barrett's face because Barrett made a bad play on a ball and then beat the shit out of him when Barrett pointed out that Zambrano had given up 10 hits. Friday he was obviously bitching about plays not being made defensively when he gave up a 3-run HR on an 0-2 pitch. He has a history of showing up his teammates when they don't make defensive plays that shouldn't be tolerated. Now he has a repeat history of causing major conflict when he's called out on it.

If we can get a decent return or avoid paying too much of his contract, it's time for him to go.

[Kid]

To add on, much as I hate to give Steve Stone credit for anything, he's right that Derrek Lee isn't Michael Barrett in terms of Zambrano starting a fight. I can't help but wonder if it had been Theriot or Fontenot that had gotten in Zambrano's face whether or not Zambrano would have gotten a lot more physical.

[Lance]

Fuck Steve Stone--whatever he said. It makes the embarassment of this whole incident worse that it happened on the south side.

[Lance]

<!--quoteo(post=103304:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:32 PM:name=dk123)-->QUOTE (dk123 @ Jun 27 2010, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The more I think about this, the more I think it is an organizational problem. In addition to the players Ruby mentioned, there was also the whole thing with Steve Stone. I am not defending Zambrano's actions, but it seems that there has been a pattern of an inability to deal with difficult or struggling players well over the last several years. Ultimately, the blame falls on Hendry and whoever has been the manager at the time. Hendry is signing these people, and then, when shit happens, it becomes way too public. When a player underperforms, it is obvious to everyone...it's not something you can hide. However, you can deal with these problems in a less public manner, instead of blowing them up to the press. I think that Hendry and Pinella have acted just as childishly as Zambrano in a way. Also, its hard for me to believe that there aren't a ton of difficult personalities all over the league. I think dealing with these personalities is part of the territory of the way the league is now, with long term guaranteed contracts, and such. Mt feeling is that guys like Hendry and Pinella are sort of old school, but when the players are really the ones running the show, that doesn't seem to work that well. Sure there are guys like Bobby Cox, but I have a feeling, that in spite of seeming a hard ass, his ability to manage personalities is pretty damn good. I really think a GM/Manager change is needed way more than dumping players.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I agree with the musician.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=103313:date=Jun 27 2010, 07:57 PM:name=Lance)-->QUOTE (Lance @ Jun 27 2010, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103304:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:32 PM:name=dk123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dk123 @ Jun 27 2010, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The more I think about this, the more I think it is an organizational problem. In addition to the players Ruby mentioned, there was also the whole thing with Steve Stone. I am not defending Zambrano's actions, but it seems that there has been a pattern of an inability to deal with difficult or struggling players well over the last several years. Ultimately, the blame falls on Hendry and whoever has been the manager at the time. Hendry is signing these people, and then, when shit happens, it becomes way too public. When a player underperforms, it is obvious to everyone...it's not something you can hide. However, you can deal with these problems in a less public manner, instead of blowing them up to the press. I think that Hendry and Pinella have acted just as childishly as Zambrano in a way. Also, its hard for me to believe that there aren't a ton of difficult personalities all over the league. I think dealing with these personalities is part of the territory of the way the league is now, with long term guaranteed contracts, and such. Mt feeling is that guys like Hendry and Pinella are sort of old school, but when the players are really the ones running the show, that doesn't seem to work that well. Sure there are guys like Bobby Cox, but I have a feeling, that in spite of seeming a hard ass, his ability to manage personalities is pretty damn good. I really think a GM/Manager change is needed way more than dumping players.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I agree with the musician.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly where I'm at.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo(post=103314:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:08 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 27 2010, 08:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103313:date=Jun 27 2010, 07:57 PM:name=Lance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lance @ Jun 27 2010, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=103304:date=Jun 27 2010, 08:32 PM:name=dk123)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dk123 @ Jun 27 2010, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The more I think about this, the more I think it is an organizational problem. In addition to the players Ruby mentioned, there was also the whole thing with Steve Stone. I am not defending Zambrano's actions, but it seems that there has been a pattern of an inability to deal with difficult or struggling players well over the last several years. Ultimately, the blame falls on Hendry and whoever has been the manager at the time. Hendry is signing these people, and then, when shit happens, it becomes way too public. When a player underperforms, it is obvious to everyone...it's not something you can hide. However, you can deal with these problems in a less public manner, instead of blowing them up to the press. I think that Hendry and Pinella have acted just as childishly as Zambrano in a way. Also, its hard for me to believe that there aren't a ton of difficult personalities all over the league. I think dealing with these personalities is part of the territory of the way the league is now, with long term guaranteed contracts, and such. Mt feeling is that guys like Hendry and Pinella are sort of old school, but when the players are really the ones running the show, that doesn't seem to work that well. Sure there are guys like Bobby Cox, but I have a feeling, that in spite of seeming a hard ass, his ability to manage personalities is pretty damn good. I really think a GM/Manager change is needed way more than dumping players.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I agree with the musician.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly where I'm at.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Me too. And I think it's time for Ricketts to fire Hendry.

[Scarey]

I think the people trying to put together a huge list of problems the Cubs have had are looking too much into this. There has been a huge amount of expectation for the Cubs for almost a decade and when players have those expectations put on them and they fail, things like this are going to happen.

You're right, it doesn't happen to other teams. What other team has such huge expectations and is as consistently inconsistent?

[Kid]

<!--quoteo(post=103316:date=Jun 27 2010, 09:28 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 27 2010, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think the people trying to put together a huge list of problems the Cubs have had are looking too much into this. There has been a huge amount of expectation for the Cubs for almost a decade and when players have those expectations put on them and they fail, things like this are going to happen.

You're right, it doesn't happen to other teams. What other team has such huge expectations and is as consistently inconsistent?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mets.