01-07-2010, 03:14 PM
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->But it's NOT impossible. Sisco and Veal, in a large part, were given up on by the Cubs. They WEREN'T going to make it with them. Sisco was supposedly lazy, and Veal couldn't find the strike zone. It's certainly possible that the Pirates figured out what was wrong with Veal, and he will be effective from here on out (and if that is the case, someone IS to blame, but it's not Hendry), but the one thing we do know is that these guys weren't likely to be effective with the Cubs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, it is not so much what these players became, but the fact that, when they were allowed to be taken via Rule 5, the Cubs had inferior players on the 40 man roster that contributed very little to the major league squad. The Cubs frequently do this because Hendry doesn't understand the importance of roster spots.
Perfect example: how many guys with injury histories has Hendry taken a chance on? These guys may sign to "cheap" contracts from a cash perspective, but they take up roster spots which might be better used to protect minor leaguers. Veal and Sisco may not have made it with the Cubs, but the fact that teams decided to draft them and keep them for an entire year suggests that they had at least some value on the trade market.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->because he was BAD. For right or wrong, the Cubs felt that a veteran like Gathright was more likely to help them than Pie was. They were trying to win the World Series. The Orioles were not. The Orioles could afford the luxury of bringing Pie along. The Cubs could not.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Cubs jerked Pie around. They brought him up as an injury fill-in for a while, sent him down, then brought him up to ride the pine for awhile. They never really gave the guy a chance to succeed, but certainly they knew that a guy like Gathright wasn't going to be much more valuable in the short run. Pie will be much more valuable in the long-run. It was bad asset management by Hendry to trade a former top prospect for next to nothing only to later sign an older player to a more expensive contract to play the exact same role on the team. The fact that Gathright was signed and that the Cubs looked all of last season for a defensive CF says Pie had a place on the team.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I have no idea. How in God's name do you?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me a break. He was a top prospect in the organization for years and there were plenty of reports of teams with interest. Hendry had his chances to trade him earlier but he held on, then the organization jerked him around, then Hendry traded him at about his lowest possible value. You don't think he could have been traded for a better return earlier in his career?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->This can't possibly be a serious question. I can't believe I have to explain this to you. I'll be short. There is a VAST difference between ownership saying "spend whatever you need to spend in order to win" and them saying "We are cutting your budget". As Cherp and I have pointed out on other threads, the almighty GM of the Red Sox overpays for people ALL THE TIME. Because he can. However, he hasn't had the rug subsequently pulled out from under him later.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The overall budget has little to do with Hendry's problems in contract negotiations. Just because the organization tells you to spend what you need to in order to win doesn't mean you go out and give guys like Bradley, Soriano, and Zambrano the contracts they got. There is a way to let star players go and spend your money wisely instead of trying desperately to keep them by offering them more than what they are worth.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Possibly, but he was UNDERPAID according to the market, when he signed. He signed for less than he would have got on the open market. And WAR aside, the market is the only thing that matters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zambrano was paid based on a projection for improvement. He hasn't improved. At the time there was no way he merited the contract he received. There are plenty of better pitchers out there on better contracts.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Soriano is overpaid. everyone on the planet knows this, INCLUDING Hendry. And he knew it at the time. However, he did it because he could.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't see anything wrong with overpaying simply because he had the payroll THAT year? Don't you think a GM should have a bit of foresight and understand that an albatross contract to a player already in his 30s is likely to hurt the team long-term? Bad contracts have killed this team's payroll flexibility, anyone with a brain foresaw this when the contract was signed. I suppose Hendry didn't give it enough thought.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->As for the rest of this, you don't see how dishonest your arguments are? You bring up WAR for Zambrano, but you ignore it for Wood because Wood was FAR more valuable than his contract. Fukdome has actually played pretty much in line with his contract according to WAR, but instead of bringing it up, you compare him to another player. You keep changing the argument to suit your point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I DID bring up WAR when referencing Fukudome. His WAR is similar to Byrd's, yet he's paid twice as much. He's overpaid by WAR standards, about $4.75MM per win. Would you want Byrd on the same contract?
As for Wood, I admit I was wrong about him. I personally would have never taken the risk of awarding him with that kind of contract though.
Again, it is not so much what these players became, but the fact that, when they were allowed to be taken via Rule 5, the Cubs had inferior players on the 40 man roster that contributed very little to the major league squad. The Cubs frequently do this because Hendry doesn't understand the importance of roster spots.
Perfect example: how many guys with injury histories has Hendry taken a chance on? These guys may sign to "cheap" contracts from a cash perspective, but they take up roster spots which might be better used to protect minor leaguers. Veal and Sisco may not have made it with the Cubs, but the fact that teams decided to draft them and keep them for an entire year suggests that they had at least some value on the trade market.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->because he was BAD. For right or wrong, the Cubs felt that a veteran like Gathright was more likely to help them than Pie was. They were trying to win the World Series. The Orioles were not. The Orioles could afford the luxury of bringing Pie along. The Cubs could not.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Cubs jerked Pie around. They brought him up as an injury fill-in for a while, sent him down, then brought him up to ride the pine for awhile. They never really gave the guy a chance to succeed, but certainly they knew that a guy like Gathright wasn't going to be much more valuable in the short run. Pie will be much more valuable in the long-run. It was bad asset management by Hendry to trade a former top prospect for next to nothing only to later sign an older player to a more expensive contract to play the exact same role on the team. The fact that Gathright was signed and that the Cubs looked all of last season for a defensive CF says Pie had a place on the team.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I have no idea. How in God's name do you?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give me a break. He was a top prospect in the organization for years and there were plenty of reports of teams with interest. Hendry had his chances to trade him earlier but he held on, then the organization jerked him around, then Hendry traded him at about his lowest possible value. You don't think he could have been traded for a better return earlier in his career?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->This can't possibly be a serious question. I can't believe I have to explain this to you. I'll be short. There is a VAST difference between ownership saying "spend whatever you need to spend in order to win" and them saying "We are cutting your budget". As Cherp and I have pointed out on other threads, the almighty GM of the Red Sox overpays for people ALL THE TIME. Because he can. However, he hasn't had the rug subsequently pulled out from under him later.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The overall budget has little to do with Hendry's problems in contract negotiations. Just because the organization tells you to spend what you need to in order to win doesn't mean you go out and give guys like Bradley, Soriano, and Zambrano the contracts they got. There is a way to let star players go and spend your money wisely instead of trying desperately to keep them by offering them more than what they are worth.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Possibly, but he was UNDERPAID according to the market, when he signed. He signed for less than he would have got on the open market. And WAR aside, the market is the only thing that matters.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Zambrano was paid based on a projection for improvement. He hasn't improved. At the time there was no way he merited the contract he received. There are plenty of better pitchers out there on better contracts.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Soriano is overpaid. everyone on the planet knows this, INCLUDING Hendry. And he knew it at the time. However, he did it because he could.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't see anything wrong with overpaying simply because he had the payroll THAT year? Don't you think a GM should have a bit of foresight and understand that an albatross contract to a player already in his 30s is likely to hurt the team long-term? Bad contracts have killed this team's payroll flexibility, anyone with a brain foresaw this when the contract was signed. I suppose Hendry didn't give it enough thought.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->As for the rest of this, you don't see how dishonest your arguments are? You bring up WAR for Zambrano, but you ignore it for Wood because Wood was FAR more valuable than his contract. Fukdome has actually played pretty much in line with his contract according to WAR, but instead of bringing it up, you compare him to another player. You keep changing the argument to suit your point.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I DID bring up WAR when referencing Fukudome. His WAR is similar to Byrd's, yet he's paid twice as much. He's overpaid by WAR standards, about $4.75MM per win. Would you want Byrd on the same contract?
As for Wood, I admit I was wrong about him. I personally would have never taken the risk of awarding him with that kind of contract though.