12-18-2009, 10:33 AM
<!--quoteo(post=72102:date=Dec 18 2009, 10:10 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 18 2009, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=72080:date=Dec 17 2009, 08:35 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 17 2009, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=72072:date=Dec 17 2009, 07:03 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 17 2009, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=72067:date=Dec 17 2009, 04:08 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Dec 17 2009, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=72061:date=Dec 17 2009, 05:38 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 17 2009, 05:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=72055:date=Dec 17 2009, 02:46 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 17 2009, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=71982:date=Dec 16 2009, 09:33 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 16 2009, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=71981:date=Dec 16 2009, 09:30 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Dec 16 2009, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I can't help but remain suspicious of defensive metrics.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's because they're bunk-ass bullshit.
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[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
So how <i>would</i> you rate a player defensively?
Seriously.
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Watch the game.
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I just find it funny that you are so against defensive stats because they're not subjective enough. Why are hitting stats ok? They're not subjective at all.
If Aramis hits four line drive screamers in the gap and is unlucky enough to have a fantastic centerfielder track down each one and make a diving catch, Ramirez get's a .000 average for the game (obviously).
Conversely, if Theriot hits four bloops in four plate appearances that fall in just in front of that centerfielder, he just got a 1.000 batting average. The stats have no subjectivity in them though. All you'll know at the end of the day is Theriot hit 1.000 and Ramirez hit .000.
Granted, more often than not over the course of the season, those lucky/unlucky hits balance themselves out on an individual basis. But really, couldn't you say the same thing about fielding stats? I'm not saying fielding stats are hugely conclusive, but I think they tend to give an idea of the capabilities of the individual player. Do you really feel that defensive stats mean nothing?
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Raw offensive stats mean nothing without context either.
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If that's your line of thinking, why do you refuse to acknowledge the context of Soto's year at the plate this year? I've explained multiple times why he was unlucky at the plate, but you just say he sucks. In fact, I believe you think it's nonsense when I'm basing my "Soto was unlucky" conclusion on a subjective measure (line drive %).
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Soto looked like a fool at the plate last year, if you don't think that, you weren't watching. I don't care how many of his outs were line drives, because that number was eclipsed by the number of times his top hand slipped off the bat. He's Rick Wilkins and I think their was some possible PED infusion that helped him get to the bigs after being pretty mediocre for all but 2 years of his career.
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Looked like a fool? He looked no different than he did in his rookie season, he just made quite a bit more outs. Top hand slipped off the bat? That's what he does. Just because noticed him do it while realizing he was struggling this year, does not mean he didn't do it before and does not mean it was the cause of his struggles.
If those line drives had only a 2 degree difference in trajectory falling in for hits and Soto ended up with an .800+ OPS, I don't think you would be bringing up any of this. But, because his stat line looks bad, you get to present your theory about him being a bust (that you've been touting since before 2008) as fact.
That's because they're bunk-ass bullshit.
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[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
So how <i>would</i> you rate a player defensively?
Seriously.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Watch the game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just find it funny that you are so against defensive stats because they're not subjective enough. Why are hitting stats ok? They're not subjective at all.
If Aramis hits four line drive screamers in the gap and is unlucky enough to have a fantastic centerfielder track down each one and make a diving catch, Ramirez get's a .000 average for the game (obviously).
Conversely, if Theriot hits four bloops in four plate appearances that fall in just in front of that centerfielder, he just got a 1.000 batting average. The stats have no subjectivity in them though. All you'll know at the end of the day is Theriot hit 1.000 and Ramirez hit .000.
Granted, more often than not over the course of the season, those lucky/unlucky hits balance themselves out on an individual basis. But really, couldn't you say the same thing about fielding stats? I'm not saying fielding stats are hugely conclusive, but I think they tend to give an idea of the capabilities of the individual player. Do you really feel that defensive stats mean nothing?
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Raw offensive stats mean nothing without context either.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's your line of thinking, why do you refuse to acknowledge the context of Soto's year at the plate this year? I've explained multiple times why he was unlucky at the plate, but you just say he sucks. In fact, I believe you think it's nonsense when I'm basing my "Soto was unlucky" conclusion on a subjective measure (line drive %).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soto looked like a fool at the plate last year, if you don't think that, you weren't watching. I don't care how many of his outs were line drives, because that number was eclipsed by the number of times his top hand slipped off the bat. He's Rick Wilkins and I think their was some possible PED infusion that helped him get to the bigs after being pretty mediocre for all but 2 years of his career.
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Looked like a fool? He looked no different than he did in his rookie season, he just made quite a bit more outs. Top hand slipped off the bat? That's what he does. Just because noticed him do it while realizing he was struggling this year, does not mean he didn't do it before and does not mean it was the cause of his struggles.
If those line drives had only a 2 degree difference in trajectory falling in for hits and Soto ended up with an .800+ OPS, I don't think you would be bringing up any of this. But, because his stat line looks bad, you get to present your theory about him being a bust (that you've been touting since before 2008) as fact.