12-16-2009, 07:09 PM
<!--quoteo(post=71970:date=Dec 16 2009, 04:17 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Dec 16 2009, 04:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=71947:date=Dec 16 2009, 02:06 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Dec 16 2009, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I can't believe I'm having this discussion with you, BT.
Let me quote something for you here from this site: Hardball Times
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->However, while Bonds chasing perhaps the sport's most prestigious record receives all the attention, another remarkable chase is going completely unnoticed. <b>Despite being in just his 11th season in the majors, Cubs infielder Neifi Perez has a chance to become arguably the single worst hitter in baseball history. Perez, whom I once compared to the worst doctor in the world, currently holds the record for worst career Runs Created Above Average (RCAA) total among active players:</b>
RCAA
NEIFI PEREZ -329
Royce Clayton -288
Rey Sanchez -247
Mike Matheny -222
Brad Ausmus -207
<b>Much like Bonds, Perez has distanced himself from the rest of the field, coming in at an astounding 329 runs below average during his career while the next-worst hitter, Royce Clayton, is at just -288. When it comes to ineptitude at the plate, beating Clayton is no easy task. That Perez is able to blow him out, along with the rest of the horrible hitters around baseball, is something that should not be overlooked. </b>He is truly a boy among men.
Having a level of incompetence that is unmatched among your peers is impressive, but the real test of offensive inferiority comes in a comparison to the elite out-makers in the sport's history. <b>Like any true great, Perez's resume stands up to the test, as his career RCAA is among the worst in modern baseball history:</b>
RCAA
Ski Melillo -355
Tommy Thevenow -351
NEIFI PEREZ -329
Bill Bergen -312
Tim Foli -309
Larry Bowa -307
Alfredo Griffin -306
Ozzie Guillen -305
Don Kessinger -305
Ed Brinkman -300
Ladies and gentlemen, The Negative 300 Club.
Whereas the spotlight has been on Bonds' climb up the home run leaderboard for years, Perez has quietly crept past the game's most impotent hitters. In fact, with his -27 RCAA in 2005, Perez leaped over Don Kessinger, Ozzie Guillen, Alfredo Griffin, Larry Bowa, Tim Foli, and Bill Bergen. It was a season for the ages, much like when Bonds' 73 homers in 2001 propelled him past all-time greats Eddie Murray, Mel Ott, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Willie McCovey, Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Mike Schmidt, and Reggie Jackson.
Bonds being within striking distance of Ruth and less than two healthy, productive seasons away from passing Aaron has been well-documented, but Perez has stealthily put himself in a similar position. His RCAA totals for the past three years are -20, -23, and -27, which means all Perez needs to overtake Tommy Thevenow and the immortal Ski Melillo for the top spot is a typically awful season of -26 RCAA. With manager Dusty Baker's help, Perez can get there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as you continue to try and defend the Neifi Perez signing, I'll continue to use your post as a punchline. I don't care how slick his fielding was (and he wasn't Ozzie Smith at SS), he was simply a god-awful batter. It's impossible to convince me (or any rational human being) that Neifi wasn't utterly replaceable by nearly any player off the scrap heap.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right Butch. Fuck every stat that shows he was an above replacement level player in 2005 (which is the only fucking point I'm making), instead you will trot out that he was a really awful OFFENSIVE player during his entire CAREER.
What the fuck do you want from me? I didn't create Warp. I didn't create winshares. I didn't create fangraphs salary tool. Every single one of them says you are wrong. So you invent an argument that never fucking took place (BT says Perez was a great offensive player during his career!), and ignore the stats that actually matter to the argument. There is a word for this kind of argument, but last time I brought it up, I was accused of being hostile.
Find me a stat that says Perez was worse than a replacement player in 2005 (or at least he was bad enough that his lousy 2006 negates his 2005 value), when this supposedly hideous contract was signed, and we can have an argument.
Just for clarity, I'M not defending the signing. The fucking stats are. I will fully concede Perez was an awful offensive player. He was a bad offensive player in 2005 and awful for his career. But shortstops have the tendency to also play defense. And if every stat I can think of shows that his bad offense combined with his good defense means he was worth more than 1.75 a year, then THAT is what I will think. Show me one that doesn't and you will have a valid argument.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, do you (not Fangraphs) believe Neifi Perez was worth $2.5M a season?
Neifi hit .274/.298/.383 in 2005. That is fucking atrocious.
Ronny Cedeno hit .269/.328/.352 in 2008. Also fucking atrocious. (They had almost the exact same OPS, by the way, in those two seasons).
Neifi made $2,500,000 for his efforts. Ronny Cedeno, on the other hand, made $407,000.
Are you going to tell me that Neifi Perez's defense was light years beyond Ronny Cedeno's? So much better, in fact, that he deserved to be paid $2,093,000 more than him?
This is my argument, BT. Players who hit .274/.298/.383 don't earn $2.5M. They earn 400k. Or...at least they should.
Let me quote something for you here from this site: Hardball Times
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->However, while Bonds chasing perhaps the sport's most prestigious record receives all the attention, another remarkable chase is going completely unnoticed. <b>Despite being in just his 11th season in the majors, Cubs infielder Neifi Perez has a chance to become arguably the single worst hitter in baseball history. Perez, whom I once compared to the worst doctor in the world, currently holds the record for worst career Runs Created Above Average (RCAA) total among active players:</b>
RCAA
NEIFI PEREZ -329
Royce Clayton -288
Rey Sanchez -247
Mike Matheny -222
Brad Ausmus -207
<b>Much like Bonds, Perez has distanced himself from the rest of the field, coming in at an astounding 329 runs below average during his career while the next-worst hitter, Royce Clayton, is at just -288. When it comes to ineptitude at the plate, beating Clayton is no easy task. That Perez is able to blow him out, along with the rest of the horrible hitters around baseball, is something that should not be overlooked. </b>He is truly a boy among men.
Having a level of incompetence that is unmatched among your peers is impressive, but the real test of offensive inferiority comes in a comparison to the elite out-makers in the sport's history. <b>Like any true great, Perez's resume stands up to the test, as his career RCAA is among the worst in modern baseball history:</b>
RCAA
Ski Melillo -355
Tommy Thevenow -351
NEIFI PEREZ -329
Bill Bergen -312
Tim Foli -309
Larry Bowa -307
Alfredo Griffin -306
Ozzie Guillen -305
Don Kessinger -305
Ed Brinkman -300
Ladies and gentlemen, The Negative 300 Club.
Whereas the spotlight has been on Bonds' climb up the home run leaderboard for years, Perez has quietly crept past the game's most impotent hitters. In fact, with his -27 RCAA in 2005, Perez leaped over Don Kessinger, Ozzie Guillen, Alfredo Griffin, Larry Bowa, Tim Foli, and Bill Bergen. It was a season for the ages, much like when Bonds' 73 homers in 2001 propelled him past all-time greats Eddie Murray, Mel Ott, Eddie Mathews, Ernie Banks, Ted Williams, Willie McCovey, Jimmie Foxx, Mickey Mantle, Mike Schmidt, and Reggie Jackson.
Bonds being within striking distance of Ruth and less than two healthy, productive seasons away from passing Aaron has been well-documented, but Perez has stealthily put himself in a similar position. His RCAA totals for the past three years are -20, -23, and -27, which means all Perez needs to overtake Tommy Thevenow and the immortal Ski Melillo for the top spot is a typically awful season of -26 RCAA. With manager Dusty Baker's help, Perez can get there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As long as you continue to try and defend the Neifi Perez signing, I'll continue to use your post as a punchline. I don't care how slick his fielding was (and he wasn't Ozzie Smith at SS), he was simply a god-awful batter. It's impossible to convince me (or any rational human being) that Neifi wasn't utterly replaceable by nearly any player off the scrap heap.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are right Butch. Fuck every stat that shows he was an above replacement level player in 2005 (which is the only fucking point I'm making), instead you will trot out that he was a really awful OFFENSIVE player during his entire CAREER.
What the fuck do you want from me? I didn't create Warp. I didn't create winshares. I didn't create fangraphs salary tool. Every single one of them says you are wrong. So you invent an argument that never fucking took place (BT says Perez was a great offensive player during his career!), and ignore the stats that actually matter to the argument. There is a word for this kind of argument, but last time I brought it up, I was accused of being hostile.
Find me a stat that says Perez was worse than a replacement player in 2005 (or at least he was bad enough that his lousy 2006 negates his 2005 value), when this supposedly hideous contract was signed, and we can have an argument.
Just for clarity, I'M not defending the signing. The fucking stats are. I will fully concede Perez was an awful offensive player. He was a bad offensive player in 2005 and awful for his career. But shortstops have the tendency to also play defense. And if every stat I can think of shows that his bad offense combined with his good defense means he was worth more than 1.75 a year, then THAT is what I will think. Show me one that doesn't and you will have a valid argument.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, do you (not Fangraphs) believe Neifi Perez was worth $2.5M a season?
Neifi hit .274/.298/.383 in 2005. That is fucking atrocious.
Ronny Cedeno hit .269/.328/.352 in 2008. Also fucking atrocious. (They had almost the exact same OPS, by the way, in those two seasons).
Neifi made $2,500,000 for his efforts. Ronny Cedeno, on the other hand, made $407,000.
Are you going to tell me that Neifi Perez's defense was light years beyond Ronny Cedeno's? So much better, in fact, that he deserved to be paid $2,093,000 more than him?
This is my argument, BT. Players who hit .274/.298/.383 don't earn $2.5M. They earn 400k. Or...at least they should.