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<!--quoteo(post=65697:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM:name=Brock)-->QUOTE (Brock @ Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65681:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65657:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savant @ Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65652:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Orlando Cabrera fixes alot of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even sure if he was as good as Theriot last year. Either way not the type of improvement I am loking for. Reyes, or Ramirez type of improvement is what I am looking for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not replacing Theriot per se, he's replacing the 2B. Then Theriot goes to 2B. Either Cabrera or Theriot bats 2nd and the other bats 8th. The up the middle defense becomes drastically better. This team doesn't need any other middle of the order guys. It needs guys who can be tablesetters and can play defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy with a career .322 OBP is a tablesetter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Batting 2nd, not striking out much, with good speed, and is a nice bunter . . . yep, pretty clearly. There's no hard, fast rule about being a tablesetter and OBP. doesn't tell the whole story.
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<!--quoteo(post=65698:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:30 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65697:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65681:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65657:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savant @ Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65652:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Orlando Cabrera fixes alot of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even sure if he was as good as Theriot last year. Either way not the type of improvement I am loking for. Reyes, or Ramirez type of improvement is what I am looking for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not replacing Theriot per se, he's replacing the 2B. Then Theriot goes to 2B. Either Cabrera or Theriot bats 2nd and the other bats 8th. The up the middle defense becomes drastically better. This team doesn't need any other middle of the order guys. It needs guys who can be tablesetters and can play defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy with a career .322 OBP is a tablesetter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Batting 2nd, not striking out much, with good speed, and is a nice bunter . . . yep, pretty clearly. There's no hard, fast rule about being a tablesetter and OBP. doesn't tell the whole story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ruby is currently the front runner for the 2010 Dusty Baker award.
"Drink Up and Beat Off!"
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I would be fine with Theriot at the 2nd spot and Cabrera at the 8th
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<!--quoteo(post=65698:date=Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65697:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65681:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65657:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savant @ Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65652:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Orlando Cabrera fixes alot of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even sure if he was as good as Theriot last year. Either way not the type of improvement I am loking for. Reyes, or Ramirez type of improvement is what I am looking for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not replacing Theriot per se, he's replacing the 2B. Then Theriot goes to 2B. Either Cabrera or Theriot bats 2nd and the other bats 8th. The up the middle defense becomes drastically better. This team doesn't need any other middle of the order guys. It needs guys who can be tablesetters and can play defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy with a career .322 OBP is a tablesetter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Batting 2nd, not striking out much, with good speed, and is a nice bunter . . . yep, pretty clearly. There's no hard, fast rule about being a tablesetter and OBP. doesn't tell the whole story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just described Neifi Perez.
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<!--quoteo(post=65702:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65698:date=Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65697:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65681:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65657:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savant @ Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65652:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Orlando Cabrera fixes alot of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even sure if he was as good as Theriot last year. Either way not the type of improvement I am loking for. Reyes, or Ramirez type of improvement is what I am looking for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not replacing Theriot per se, he's replacing the 2B. Then Theriot goes to 2B. Either Cabrera or Theriot bats 2nd and the other bats 8th. The up the middle defense becomes drastically better. This team doesn't need any other middle of the order guys. It needs guys who can be tablesetters and can play defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy with a career .322 OBP is a tablesetter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Batting 2nd, not striking out much, with good speed, and is a nice bunter . . . yep, pretty clearly. There's no hard, fast rule about being a tablesetter and OBP. doesn't tell the whole story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just described Neifi Perez.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except Cabrera has a career OPS+ that is 22 points higher.
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<!--quoteo(post=65701:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I would be fine with Theriot at the 2nd spot and Cabrera at the 8th<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Me too, but I don't think it'd really make alot of difference either way, they're very similar overall hitters.
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<!--quoteo(post=65705:date=Oct 6 2009, 08:52 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65702:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65698:date=Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65697:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65681:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65657:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savant @ Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65652:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Orlando Cabrera fixes alot of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even sure if he was as good as Theriot last year. Either way not the type of improvement I am loking for. Reyes, or Ramirez type of improvement is what I am looking for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not replacing Theriot per se, he's replacing the 2B. Then Theriot goes to 2B. Either Cabrera or Theriot bats 2nd and the other bats 8th. The up the middle defense becomes drastically better. This team doesn't need any other middle of the order guys. It needs guys who can be tablesetters and can play defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy with a career .322 OBP is a tablesetter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Batting 2nd, not striking out much, with good speed, and is a nice bunter . . . yep, pretty clearly. There's no hard, fast rule about being a tablesetter and OBP. doesn't tell the whole story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just described Neifi Perez.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except Cabrera has a career OPS+ that is 22 points higher.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so now you're arguing that OPS is important. Which is it?
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<!--quoteo(post=65707:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:53 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Oct 6 2009, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65705:date=Oct 6 2009, 08:52 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65702:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Oct 6 2009, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65698:date=Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65697:date=Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Oct 6 2009, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65681:date=Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65657:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM:name=savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (savant @ Oct 6 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65652:date=Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Oct 6 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Orlando Cabrera fixes alot of problems.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even sure if he was as good as Theriot last year. Either way not the type of improvement I am loking for. Reyes, or Ramirez type of improvement is what I am looking for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's not replacing Theriot per se, he's replacing the 2B. Then Theriot goes to 2B. Either Cabrera or Theriot bats 2nd and the other bats 8th. The up the middle defense becomes drastically better. This team doesn't need any other middle of the order guys. It needs guys who can be tablesetters and can play defense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A guy with a career .322 OBP is a tablesetter?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Batting 2nd, not striking out much, with good speed, and is a nice bunter . . . yep, pretty clearly. There's no hard, fast rule about being a tablesetter and OBP. doesn't tell the whole story.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You just described Neifi Perez.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except Cabrera has a career OPS+ that is 22 points higher.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
so now you're arguing that OPS is important. Which is it?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When you're comparing 2 non-power hitting players, with basically the same skill set; yes, it's a fine stat to use. It's all about context.
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Cabrera had 25 errors this season. He'll be 35 next season. He doesn't hit for a high average or get on base or hit for power. Why do we want him? Because he's a good bunter and doesn't strike out a lot?
Pass.
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<!--quoteo(post=65726:date=Oct 6 2009, 09:13 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2009, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cabrera had 25 errors this season. He'll be 35 next season. He doesn't hit for a high average or get on base or hit for power. Why do we want him? Because he's a good bunter and doesn't strike out a lot?
Pass.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'll pass too. Also from what I remember he's a clubhouse cancer, at least he was when he was on the Sox.
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."
- Butcher
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<!--quoteo(post=65728:date=Oct 6 2009, 09:55 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Oct 6 2009, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65726:date=Oct 6 2009, 09:13 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 6 2009, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cabrera had 25 errors this season. He'll be 35 next season. He doesn't hit for a high average or get on base or hit for power. Why do we want him? Because he's a good bunter and doesn't strike out a lot?
Pass.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I'll pass too. Also from what I remember he's a clubhouse cancer, at least he was when he was on the Sox.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if Cabrera was a major distraction or not, but the main reason why the Sox let him go was because they didn't wanna pay him and because they felt it was time to move Alexei Ramirez to his natural position at SS. Too bad for them, he turned out to be a gigantic disaster over there.
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I've heard that Cabrera is good in the clubhouse. I guess it just depends on if the team is winning for not.
As for the errors thing, I'm guessing that his range is excellent compared to Theriot at SS. Most of his errors are on throws, for which we have a guy at first that is notorious for cutting those down.
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<!--quoteo(post=65745:date=Oct 7 2009, 07:43 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Oct 7 2009, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I've heard that Cabrera is good in the clubhouse. I guess it just depends on if the team is winning for not.
As for the errors thing, I'm guessing that his range is excellent compared to Theriot at SS. Most of his errors are on throws, for which we have a guy at first that is notorious for cutting those down.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A broomstick with a bucket overturned on its top has better range than Theriot, so it shouldn't be all that hard to upgrade in that department. Theriot has him beat in pretty much everything else, though.
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<!--quoteo(post=65749:date=Oct 7 2009, 08:05 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Oct 7 2009, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=65745:date=Oct 7 2009, 07:43 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Oct 7 2009, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I've heard that Cabrera is good in the clubhouse. I guess it just depends on if the team is winning for not.
As for the errors thing, I'm guessing that his range is excellent compared to Theriot at SS. Most of his errors are on throws, for which we have a guy at first that is notorious for cutting those down.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A broomstick with a bucket overturned on its top has better range than Theriot, so it shouldn't be all that hard to upgrade in that department. Theriot has him beat in pretty much everything else, though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this isn't about replacing Theriot. It's about Theriot replacing Fontenot and Cabrera becoming the SS. There's nothing about adding Cabrera and purging Fontenot that makes this team worse.
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The problem is that unless we're looking for a trade, you won't find an available free agent SS that has both better range than Theriot and is a better hitter (OBP/OPS). It's just not there. So either you accept that you're getting a better hitter with the same or worse fielding (Tejada) or you accept you're getting a better fielder with worse hitting (Cabrera). OR you look for a trade, though I haven't heard of any decent SS's that are open for trade.
I got nothin'.
Andy
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