Harden Shut Down?

[rok]

Good riddance.

[veryzer]

yep. he won't be back.

[Brock]

That's really kind of fucked on both sides - on Harden for being a pussy and on Lou and the organization for saying ok go ahead and be a pussy and don't pitch anymore.

[Ace]

I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.

If he accepts the arbitration, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.

[cigar]

<!--quoteo(post=64425:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.
If he accepts, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I agree with you but again it is going to depend on how much money Ricketts is going to want to spend in his first year as being an owner. They may not want to risk paying Harden money that they did not plan on paying him. I would not be surprised to see the Cubs not offer him arbitration. As much as it seems like a win win situation... there is some risk there for teams that are on a budget or close to it anyway.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=64427:date=Sep 25 2009, 08:18 PM:name=stevestonescigar)-->QUOTE (stevestonescigar @ Sep 25 2009, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64425:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#ff0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.
If he accepts, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I agree with you but again it is going to depend on how much money Ricketts is going to want to spend in his first year as being an owner. They may not want to risk paying Harden money that they did not plan on paying him. I would not be surprised to see the Cubs not offer him arbitration. As much as it seems like a win win situation... there is some risk there for teams that are on a budget or close to it anyway.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It is also possible that teams could wait to sign Harden until after the draft pick deadline thingy (like Orlando Hudson, IIRC), in which case the Cubs would only get a sandwich pick for him (right?).

[kbwsb]

Acey, the Hudson thing was really rare, and even if that did happen, a sandwich pick is still a 1st-round pick (actually more like a real high 2nd rounder, but still).

And cigar, good point; however, I think terms like "budget" become laughable when your GM basically says "I PISS on $21 million dollars, because this Bradley fellow is a hassle."

[cigar]

<!--quoteo(post=64431:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:27 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64428:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:21 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 07:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64427:date=Sep 25 2009, 08:18 PM:name=stevestonescigar)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stevestonescigar @ Sep 25 2009, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64425:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#ff0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.
If he accepts, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you but again it is going to depend on how much money Ricketts is going to want to spend in his first year as being an owner. They may not want to risk paying Harden money that they did not plan on paying him. I would not be surprised to see the Cubs not offer him arbitration. As much as it seems like a win win situation... there is some risk there for teams that are on a budget or close to it anyway.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

It is also possible that teams could wait to sign Harden until after the draft pick deadline thingy (like Orlando Hudson, IIRC), in which case the Cubs would only get a sandwich pick for him (right?).
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the Hudson thing was really rare, and even if that did happen, a sandwich pick is still a 1st-round pick (actually more like a real high 2nd rounder, but still).

And cigar, I think terms like "budget" become laughable when your GM basically says "I PISS on $21 million dollars, because this Bradley fellow is a hassle."
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Sure but I am sure that is already counted into the "budget." To think other wise is ridiculous and asinine. Unless you are the Yankees, every team in the league has a 'limit" on what they are willing to spend. Whether you want to admit it or not there is some risk involved with offering a player arbitration. Otherwise every team would be doing it with every player.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=64425:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#FF0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.

If he accepts the arbitration, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the only three free agent pitchers I'd rather have than Harden:

John Lackey
Brad Penny
Randy Wolf

There are others, but they have options that will likely get picked up.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=64437:date=Sep 25 2009, 09:40 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 25 2009, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64425:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#ff0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.

If he accepts the arbitration, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the only three free agent pitchers I'd rather have than Harden:

John Lackey
Brad Penny
Randy Wolf

There are others, but they have options that will likely get picked up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You'd rather have those guys?

[rok]

Harden's stats are soooo misleading though. Do we really need another SP who can only go 5 innings and overworks the pen? Harden was fairly average this season, even though we were able to keep him relatively healthy, so I'm not that thrilled to bring him back. As a #5 starter, sure, but not as anything else. He's never going to be durable enough or eat up enough innings to be a front-end starter, or deserve the kind of a salary that some teams might throw at him.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=64438:date=Sep 25 2009, 08:53 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64437:date=Sep 25 2009, 09:40 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Sep 25 2009, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64425:date=Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Sep 25 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=64423:date=Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Sep 25 2009, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I tend to think the Cubs wouldn't be so blase about letting him do this unless they did think there was a chance they were going to resign him (or at least offer arbitration, and thus don't want to hurt his value any more this year).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed.
For all his bullshit, he's pitched well enough. I'd certainly offer him arb.
The SP FA market this winter is terrible, and it's not like we've got a slew of guys
<!--coloro:#ff0000--><!--/coloro-->rarin' to go<!--colorc-->
<!--/colorc--> in Triple A.

If he accepts the arbitration, we get a respectable, cost-effective starter, who is frustrating, but has a higher ceiling than any other FA pitcher.
If he declines, we get a free 1st-round draft pick.
Win-win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here are the only three free agent pitchers I'd rather have than Harden:

John Lackey
Brad Penny
Randy Wolf

There are others, but they have options that will likely get picked up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You'd rather have those guys?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes.

[kbwsb]

Lackey, yes. The other guys are good, too, but not as good as Harden.

I'm curious about the "overworking the 'pen" thing though. I've always thought many of those bullpen guys would benefit from <i>more</i> work.
Plus, why not just consider our #5 pitcher to be Harden/Marshall, and just go <i>in</i> to the game knowing that one guy will give you 5 innings, and the other guy will give you three or four? Marshall has only pitched 84 innings this year; he's capable of at least <i>double</i> that.

[CFOrfan]

I think we are going to regret not bringing back Harden when June rolls around next season. Here;s a quote from Lou

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->"You look at our starting pitching here for next year," Piniella said. "You've got (Carlos) Zambrano, you've got (Ryan) Dempster, you've got (Randy) Wells, you've got (Ted) Lilly, you've got (Tom) Gorzelanny, and you've got (Jeff) Samardzija, who is going to go to winter ball. And if this kid keeps improving, he'll be right in the mix. So we've got six nice arms."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

So Lou wants to lean on Wells, Gorzelanna, and Samardzjia? No thank you. I know Wells is having a good year, but even Jim Bullinger won 12 games once.