Soriano is awful

[Butcher]

There are times when I'd like to strangle Soriano, but he isn't worthless. And to think he isn't worth $4M a season over 5 years is pure insanity.

Saying he isn't worth his current contract (he isn't) isn't the same as saying he's worthless.

[cherp]

<!--quoteo(post=59272:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59271:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 21 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59270:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:02 AM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59264:date=Aug 21 2009, 10:42 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 21 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you all are correct I sure as hell hope we trade him. Because he is bad and isn't getting any better.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I wonder if new ownership is going to clean house from the top down, and really rebuild? That would be interesting. I don't see it happening - but it could be. If they want to eat a large chunk, they might even be able to get a decent prospect for Soriano.
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I'm very anxious to see what Ricketts' plans are. I really hope he takes a page out of the Red Sox's book. If he goes with a true rebuild right out of the box, there could be some backlash from the fan base. But at this point, I think it's the right thing to do.
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I think you can balance it out where you semi-rebuild by restocking the farm system and shedding a few bad contracts, while still remaining competitive at the same time. I just can't see a full-on rebuilding process taking place, at least not yet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How would you go about doing that? Not saying it is impossible - just curious how you would suggest doing it with this roster/farm/organization.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=59320:date=Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM:name=cherp)-->QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59272:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59271:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 21 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59270:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:02 AM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59264:date=Aug 21 2009, 10:42 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 21 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you all are correct I sure as hell hope we trade him. Because he is bad and isn't getting any better.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I wonder if new ownership is going to clean house from the top down, and really rebuild? That would be interesting. I don't see it happening - but it could be. If they want to eat a large chunk, they might even be able to get a decent prospect for Soriano.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm very anxious to see what Ricketts' plans are. I really hope he takes a page out of the Red Sox's book. If he goes with a true rebuild right out of the box, there could be some backlash from the fan base. But at this point, I think it's the right thing to do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you can balance it out where you semi-rebuild by restocking the farm system and shedding a few bad contracts, while still remaining competitive at the same time. I just can't see a full-on rebuilding process taking place, at least not yet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How would you go about doing that? Not saying it is impossible - just curious how you would suggest doing it with this roster/farm/organization.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure, but if you can trade some of the bigger contracts away from a few real prospects, re-focus on player development, free away some payroll, and retain the core of the team, you could accomplish a great deal.

Didn't the Sox just do this, though they depleted a great deal of their farm system in the process?

Too bad we aren't the Red Sox, because what they've done is exactly what I would want. How they balance all those areas is very impressive. I don't expect the Cubs to be able to pull it off, but I'd like to see them try.

[cherp]

<!--quoteo(post=59331:date=Aug 21 2009, 02:00 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 02:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59320:date=Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59272:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59271:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:07 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 21 2009, 11:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59270:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:02 AM:name=cherp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 11:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59264:date=Aug 21 2009, 10:42 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 21 2009, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you all are correct I sure as hell hope we trade him. Because he is bad and isn't getting any better.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I wonder if new ownership is going to clean house from the top down, and really rebuild? That would be interesting. I don't see it happening - but it could be. If they want to eat a large chunk, they might even be able to get a decent prospect for Soriano.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm very anxious to see what Ricketts' plans are. I really hope he takes a page out of the Red Sox's book. If he goes with a true rebuild right out of the box, there could be some backlash from the fan base. But at this point, I think it's the right thing to do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you can balance it out where you semi-rebuild by restocking the farm system and shedding a few bad contracts, while still remaining competitive at the same time. I just can't see a full-on rebuilding process taking place, at least not yet.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How would you go about doing that? Not saying it is impossible - just curious how you would suggest doing it with this roster/farm/organization.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure, but if you can trade some of the bigger contracts away from a few real prospects, re-focus on player development, free away some payroll, and retain the core of the team, you could accomplish a great deal.

Didn't the Sox just do this, though they depleted a great deal of their farm system in the process?

Too bad we aren't the Red Sox, because what they've done is exactly what I would want. How they balance all those areas is very impressive. I don't expect the Cubs to be able to pull it off, but I'd like to see them try.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Not sure what the Sox did...Their farm system was a wreck two years ago. It's much better today than it was then. They gave up Poreda and Richard (both of whom look like #4/#5s or pen guys to me along with Russel who looks like a 4A guy and Carter (23 yo in A). They kept nearly all their big prospects. Williams did add a lot to the farm in the past 2 years. Signed the Cuban Viciedo, drafted well (Hudson), acquired Flowers for Javy, etc. His moves for Rios and Peavy are very questionable. I'm not going to celebrate either yet. They have potential to be good or bad. But next year he has to replace Thome, get a #5 starter (Hudson?) make a call on Dye's option and start to look at replacements for AJ and Konerko. I'm not sure he has really rebuilt this team on the fly. He retooled - but rebuilding requires (IMHO) a lot more.

Most fans don't have the patience for a complete rebuild. It's hard for a team to do it. The Cubs right now are in a rare situation where they can. Ownership will have tons of rope with the fans. They can set a clear vision/direction and the fans will support it - at least for a while. Complete housecleaning may not be the worst thing in the world.

[Butcher]

Replacing AJ Pierzynski would go a long way towards converting my seething hatred of the Sox back into mild irritation. Ozzie, Hawk and now Stone, Buehrle, and Jenks would all have to get 86'd as well, but getting rid of AJP would definitely be a step in the right direction.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=59344:date=Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Replacing AJ Pierzynski would go a long way towards converting my seething hatred of the Sox back into mild irritation. Ozzie, Hawk and now Stone, Buehrle, and Jenks would all have to get 86'd as well, but getting rid of AJP would definitely be a step in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, it's funny because thinking back to the 80s and 90s, I never truly hated any Sox players, coaches, or upper management in any way. What is it about this collection of people (aside from their WS victory) that makes them so unlikeable? It's as if these people were acquired not simply for their ability to play baseball, but to also talk shit about the Cubs. It's fine if they want to have a permanent chip on their shoulders for motivational purposes, but the shit talking and stereotypes got old several years ago.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=59351:date=Aug 21 2009, 02:26 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59344:date=Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Replacing AJ Pierzynski would go a long way towards converting my seething hatred of the Sox back into mild irritation. Ozzie, Hawk and now Stone, Buehrle, and Jenks would all have to get 86'd as well, but getting rid of AJP would definitely be a step in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, it's funny because thinking back to the 80s and 90s, I never truly hated any Sox players, coaches, or upper management in any way. What is it about this collection of people (aside from their WS victory) that makes them so unlikeable? It's as if these people were acquired not simply for their ability to play baseball, but to also talk shit about the Cubs. It's fine if they want to have a permanent chip on their shoulders for motivational purposes, but the shit talking and stereotypes got old several years ago.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm convinced that it comes from up top. KW and even fucking Reinsdorf talk shit about the Cubs. When your owner, GM, and manager all have a giant chip on their shoulder about their neighbor on the other side of town, it's no surprise that it trickles down to their players.

[cherp]

<!--quoteo(post=59344:date=Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Aug 21 2009, 02:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Replacing AJ Pierzynski would go a long way towards converting my seething hatred of the Sox back into mild irritation. Ozzie, Hawk and now Stone, Buehrle, and Jenks would all have to get 86'd as well, but getting rid of AJP would definitely be a step in the right direction.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

To me, he is the Bill Laimbeer of MLB. His teammates (with the exception of his time in SF) love him. His opponents hate him. As a Twin, I hated his guts. With the Sox, I just wish he was a better defensive catcher.

[VanSlawAndCottoCheese]

<!--quoteo(post=59355:date=Aug 21 2009, 03:35 PM:name=cherp)-->QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->As a Twin, I hated his guts.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did you play for the Twins? Say, are you Doug Mientkiewicz?

[ruby23]

The Cubs season hits the skids and cherp shows up to "talk baseball" . . . color me shocked.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=59320:date=Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM:name=cherp)-->QUOTE (cherp @ Aug 21 2009, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=59272:date=Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->
I think you can balance it out where you semi-rebuild by restocking the farm system and shedding a few bad contracts, while still remaining competitive at the same time. I just can't see a full-on rebuilding process taking place, at least not yet.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

How would you go about doing that? Not saying it is impossible - just curious how you would suggest doing it with this roster/farm/organization.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Trade Lee, Bradley, and Lilly for prospects. They could get some very good players out of dealing such players. Try to get a young major league ready center fielder.

Throw Fox into the 1B hole, move Fukudome back to right field, and give Gorzelanny, Marshall, Samardzija, and Caridad an opportunity to take Lilly's and Harden's spots.

Offer Harden arbitration and wait for the draft pick to hit the system. Do NOT offer Gregg, Heilman, Cotts, Grabow (unless he's a B class FA), and Baker arbitration. Replace them with Blake Parker, John Gaub, Justin Berg, and Andres Blanco.

Pluck a middle infielder off the scrap heap. Nobody top tier, but maybe an older guy that can fill in for a year or two till Flaherty/Castro/Lee/Thomas/Barney etc. are ready. Think Jack Wilson, Marco Scutaro, Placido Polanco, or Mark DeRosa.

Next year's Cubs would look like:

C: Geovany Soto
1B Jake Fox
2B Ryan Theriot
SS: Marco Scutaro
3B Aramis Ramirez
LF: Alfonso Soriano
CF: Michael Saunders
RF: Kosuke Fukudome

SP1: Carlos Zambrano
SP2: Ryan Dempster:
SP3: Randy Wells
SP4: Tom Gorzelanny
SP5: Esmailin Caridad

Bench:
Koyie Hill
Mike Fontenot
Sam Fuld
Micah Hoffpauir
Aaron Miles

Bullpen:

Justin Berg
Blake Parker
John Gaub
Angel Guzman
Sean Marshall
Jeff Stevens
Carlos Marmol

That rotation sticks out like a sore thumb, but in another year or two guys like Andrew Cashner, Jay Jackson, and Chris Carpenter will be fillin up the rotation. I wouldn't say it's ideal, but given the first rounder we'll get for Harden and what Lee, Bradley, and Lilly would fetch, the Cubs would have a bright future. If Soriano was movable at all I would do it, it's just going to have to take the right team in the right situation. I think AL teams would be pretty happy to get Soriano, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Kid]

That's like a 65-win team.

[Ace]

Dang, I liked your thinking Scarey, and then I saw the team. It looks like poop.

[Butcher]

If we're going to rebuild, let's go all-out. We'll suffer through a few brutal years, but we'll be back. Do it like the Marlins. Trade everyone who can be traded. No half-assing it and putting 75-win teams on the field. I want to look like the fucking Nationals.

[Clapp]

Why the hell would we trade Lee and Lilly? This is a 90+ win team that had every freaking thing go wrong this year. Go back at it with mostly the same group next year. Christ, look at our record when just Aramis plays even. Honestly, it's a minor miracle that we're over .500 with 85% of the team playing either below career averages(some well below: Soriano) or missing a lot of time with injuries.