Pirates Trades (Grabow, Gorzelanny)

[Brock]

Didn't Dave Littlefield give us Aramis and Lofton for Jose Hernandez and Bobby Hill? And he was hired as a Cubs scout?

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=54161:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM:name=Brock)-->QUOTE (Brock @ Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't Dave Littlefield give us Aramis and Lofton for Jose Hernandez and Bobby Hill? And he was hired as a Cubs scout?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We also gave up AAA P Matt Bruback.
Yes, we hired him.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=54162:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:37 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54161:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't Dave Littlefield give us Aramis and Lofton for Jose Hernandez and Bobby Hill? And he was hired as a Cubs scout?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We also gave up AAA P Matt Bruback.
Yes, we hired him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was proabably part of the deal. We told him that when he got fired for making such a retarded trade that we'd hire him.

[SandbergMVP1984]

<!--quoteo(post=54163:date=Jul 31 2009, 07:41 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 31 2009, 07:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54162:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:37 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54161:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't Dave Littlefield give us Aramis and Lofton for Jose Hernandez and Bobby Hill? And he was hired as a Cubs scout?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We also gave up AAA P Matt Bruback.
Yes, we hired him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was proabably part of the deal. We told him that when he got fired for making such a retarded trade that we'd hire him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're onto something

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=54163:date=Jul 31 2009, 07:41 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Jul 31 2009, 07:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54162:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:37 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54161:date=Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Jul 31 2009, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Didn't Dave Littlefield give us Aramis and Lofton for Jose Hernandez and Bobby Hill? And he was hired as a Cubs scout?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We also gave up AAA P Matt Bruback.
Yes, we hired him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was proabably part of the deal. We told him that when he got fired for making such a retarded trade that we'd hire him.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


You know, people tend to forget that Ramirez was pretty bad in 2002, the year before we traded for him. He was young still, but he had an OPS under .700. He was also considered a butcher at 3b.

I'm not saying that justifies the deal from Pittsburgh's end, because he was a highly touted rookie who got to the majors at the age of 20, but the ARam that the Cubs have seen is a completely different player than the ARam the Pirates saw (outside of his very good 2001 season).

We got a steal, but it wasn't that obvious at the time.

[Coach]

Baseball America's take on the trade at the time

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Ramirez, 25, broke through as one of the game's top young third basemen when he hit .300-34-112 in 2001. He hasn't approached those numbers since, however, batting .234-18-71 in 2002 and .280-12-67 in 96 games this year. He has power to all fields and makes reasonable contact, though he could draw more walks. He doesn't move especially well on the bases or at third base, but he does have soft hands and a strong arm. In 559 big league games, Ramirez has hit .263-76-316 with a .312 on-base percentage and .435 slugging percentage. He'll slam the door shut on the Cubs' revolving door at third base, where Mark Bellhorn, Lenny Harris, Hernandez and Ramon Martinez were unable to seal a starting job this year. Chicago also had pursued Florida's Mike Lowell without success.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Butcher]

I loved the Ramirez trade oh so much when it first went down. I think it's because he was somewhat of a "sleeper" pick on my fantasy team in 2001 and he kicked all sorts of ass. That was the Ramirez I remembered when we got him.

[Andy]

<!--quoteo(post=54174:date=Jul 31 2009, 09:16 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Baseball America's take on the trade at the time

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Ramirez, 25, broke through as one of the game's top young third basemen when he hit .300-34-112 in 2001. He hasn't approached those numbers since, however, batting .234-18-71 in 2002 and .280-12-67 in 96 games this year. He has power to all fields and makes reasonable contact, though he could draw more walks. He doesn't move especially well on the bases or at third base, but he does have soft hands and a strong arm. In 559 big league games, Ramirez has hit .263-76-316 with a .312 on-base percentage and .435 slugging percentage. <b>He'll slam the door shut on the Cubs' revolving door at third base, where Mark Bellhorn, Lenny Harris, Hernandez and Ramon Martinez were unable to seal a starting job this year.</b> Chicago also had pursued Florida's Mike Lowell without success.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think the bolded portion of that quote gives the ultimate feeling most people had on the trade. We knew we were getting a long term solution to 3rd base. It wasn't a given that he was going to be as good as he's been, but I recall just about everyone talking about him as the next player to hold the position for a while.

[BT]

Go back and look at his stats though. Again, he was very young, so he should be cut some slack, but

1998-bad
1999-bad
2000-bad
2001-really good
2002-bad
2003-Pittsburgh-good
2003-Cubs-better
2004-2009- really really amazingly good.

[rok]

He also battled through some injuries after 2001, so I think most scouts knew that factored into his poorer performance for 2002. And he was still really young.

[ruby23]

That wasn't known as the Ramirez trade when it happened, it was known as the Lofton trade.

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=54217:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That wasn't known as the Ramirez trade when it happened, it was known as the Lofton trade.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not by me.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=54219:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54217:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That wasn't known as the Ramirez trade when it happened, it was known as the Lofton trade.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not by me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto. I was psyched about Lofton, but I had a feeling Ramirez was going to be the jewel of that trade.

[ruby23]

You guys are full of fucking shit.

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=54220:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:37 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 31 2009, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54219:date=Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM:name=Coach)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coach @ Jul 31 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=54217:date=Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 31 2009, 11:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That wasn't known as the Ramirez trade when it happened, it was known as the Lofton trade.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not by me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ditto. I was psyched about Lofton, but I had a feeling Ramirez was going to be the jewel of that trade.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely.
Lofton was a one year rental to replacement Patterson, but A-Ram was a promising young 3rd baseman.
I was worried about his defense though.