Piniella has to be canned

[MrSheps]

I blame Hendry way more than I blame Lou for this year to date, and I'm no fan of Lou these days. But while I blame Lou for some things and the players for plenty, obviously, Hendry has made some moves that have crapped all over his face. I still like the job he's done in recent years over all for sure, but he's gone bust on this season so far with the moves. I don't need to list them, we all know them, but if you look just at his main focus in the off season, adding a left handed bat, my god has this been a disaster. And it wasn't a shock that it hasn't worked out either, a lot of people saw it coming.

Anyway, the team has time, and Aram's injury has made a bad situation look much worse, but I would rather the big statement move, if one needs to be made, be trading Bradley somehow or admitting a mistake and re-acquiring Dero before the Cards snagged him-- something personnel based to right a rough off season. Not firing Lou after two division titles and a manager of the year award. It'll just make Hendry look worse.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=47075:date=Jun 29 2009, 04:37 PM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47062:date=Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even the 2003 Marlins were supposed to be good, after signing IRod, and trading for Pierre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That makes my point for me. They were underperforming, so they canned the manager.

Then they won the World Series.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


so, just to be clear, if a team was not supposed to be good, and they won after a change in managers, it proves your point, AND if a team was supposed to be good, and they won after a change in managers, it proves your point as well? Is there any possible scenario which DOESN'T prove your point?

[SandbergMVP1984]

<!--quoteo(post=47202:date=Jun 30 2009, 08:32 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 30 2009, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47075:date=Jun 29 2009, 04:37 PM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47062:date=Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even the 2003 Marlins were supposed to be good, after signing IRod, and trading for Pierre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That makes my point for me. They were underperforming, so they canned the manager.

Then they won the World Series.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


so, just to be clear, if a team was not supposed to be good, and they won after a change in managers, it proves your point, AND if a team was supposed to be good, and they won after a change in managers, it proves your point as well? Is there any possible scenario which DOESN'T prove your point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I understood it to be "If you have a team that was expected to perform well and they aren't, then changing the manager has been shown to work, although not all the time. If you have a shitty team and change managers, it's much less likely to magically make them a good one." I tend to agree that this team needs a shakeup. Firing Lou is one of the few "shake up" things we can attempt due to our lack of payroll. Whether it works or not is pretty much irrelevant and a lot of it depends on the manager that would replace Lou.

[The Dude]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Piniella voted least popular manager in player survey
By Paul Sullivan

PITTSBURGH -- It's been a rough week for Lou Piniella, to say the least.

First Piniella had to deflect questions about any lack of "fire." Then he was forced to apologize to Milton Bradley after his profane comment to Bradley from their confrontation in visitors clubhouse at the Cell was leaked to the Sun-Times.

Now, in the upcoming issue of Sports Illustrated, Piniella has been voted as the manager major league players would least like to play for. Ouch.

In a poll of 380 players, conducted in May, Piniella received 26 percent of the vote, followed closely by White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen at 21 percent. St. Louis' Tony La Russa finished third at 10 percent, followed by the Dodgers' Joe Torre (4 percent) and Cleveland's Eric Wedge (4 percent).

Players could not vote for managers from their own team, and the poll was anonymous, so no one knows who voted for whom. (Full disclosure: As an SI correspondent, I polled Cubs players for the survey).

In this week's issue, Bobby Cox was named the manager players would most like to play for, with 25 percent of the vote. He was followed by Torre (16 percent), the Angels' Mike Scioscia (8 percent), Tampa Bay's Joe Maddon (8 percent) and Boston's Terry Francona (7 percent).<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[The Dude]

oops- double post.

[Fly]

<!--quoteo(post=47075:date=Jun 29 2009, 05:37 PM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 05:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47062:date=Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even the 2003 Marlins were supposed to be good, after signing IRod, and trading for Pierre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That makes my point for me. They were underperforming, so they canned the manager.

Then they won the World Series.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Mets were supposed to be good, fired Willie Randolph, didn't win.

If your point is that good teams tend to play well and bad teams don't, regardless of who coaches, then your point is made. All this says (above) is that a team that was supposed to be good...and probably was playing below it's expected level before the move...turned out to be good. It doesn't say that they wouldn't have been good had they not made the managerial change.

This is the same sort of thinking that believes that Lou's blow up in Atlanta a few years ago led to us getting hot and winning the NL central. It didn't. The team was playing well below it's talent and the trend switched. It would have happened even if Lou hadn't gotten run.

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=47202:date=Jun 30 2009, 08:32 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 30 2009, 08:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47075:date=Jun 29 2009, 04:37 PM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47062:date=Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 29 2009, 03:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even the 2003 Marlins were supposed to be good, after signing IRod, and trading for Pierre.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That makes my point for me. They were underperforming, so they canned the manager.

Then they won the World Series.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


so, just to be clear, if a team was not supposed to be good, and they won after a change in managers, it proves your point, AND if a team was supposed to be good, and they won after a change in managers, it proves your point as well? Is there any possible scenario which DOESN'T prove your point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Damn straight.

Just like anything, firing a manager can have multiple effects. I never said that if we fire Piniella today, we end up running house the rest of the way through. But I just don't view him as a good manager. Ever since he won that World Series ions ago in Cincy, he has underperformed. He won 116 games in the reg season and barely got out of the ALDS--then got their asses kicked by a much better manager: Joe Torre.

This guy just can't finish anymore.

[Lance]

<!--quoteo(post=47243:date=Jun 30 2009, 02:04 PM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 30 2009, 02:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This guy just can't finish anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's what she said.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=47018:date=Jun 29 2009, 11:36 AM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yea but firing a manager sometimes has that effect on a team that can't be explained.

The 2003 Red Sox lose that tight ALCS to the Yankees. What did they do? They fired Grady Little. What happened in 2004? They won it all.

The 2003 Florida Marlins fired Jeff Torborg and installed Jeff McKeon. We all know what happened after that.

Last year the Brewers had no shame in firing their manager, when they started to falter a bit at the end of the season. They ended up winning the Wild Card.

I'm sure there are other examples...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


By the way, there are other examples. I just heard this stat. 119 times a team has changed it's manger during the season. How many times has that team then went on to make the playofs?



Seven.


Of those seven, how many won the World Series?



One.


I rest my case.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=47526:date=Jul 1 2009, 05:02 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 1 2009, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47018:date=Jun 29 2009, 11:36 AM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yea but firing a manager sometimes has that effect on a team that can't be explained.

The 2003 Red Sox lose that tight ALCS to the Yankees. What did they do? They fired Grady Little. What happened in 2004? They won it all.

The 2003 Florida Marlins fired Jeff Torborg and installed Jeff McKeon. We all know what happened after that.

Last year the Brewers had no shame in firing their manager, when they started to falter a bit at the end of the season. They ended up winning the Wild Card.

I'm sure there are other examples...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


By the way, there are other examples. I just heard this stat. 119 times a team has changed it's manger during the season. How many times has that team then went on to make the playofs?



Seven.


Of those seven, how many won the World Series?



One.


I rest my case.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that pretty much settles it.

[Lance]

<!--quoteo(post=47526:date=Jul 1 2009, 06:02 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jul 1 2009, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=47018:date=Jun 29 2009, 11:36 AM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 29 2009, 11:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Yea but firing a manager sometimes has that effect on a team that can't be explained.

The 2003 Red Sox lose that tight ALCS to the Yankees. What did they do? They fired Grady Little. What happened in 2004? They won it all.

The 2003 Florida Marlins fired Jeff Torborg and installed Jeff McKeon. We all know what happened after that.

Last year the Brewers had no shame in firing their manager, when they started to falter a bit at the end of the season. They ended up winning the Wild Card.

I'm sure there are other examples...<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


By the way, there are other examples. I just heard this stat. 119 times a team has changed it's manger during the season. How many times has that team then went on to make the playofs?



Seven.


Of those seven, how many won the World Series?



One.


I rest my case.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Well done, counselor. Firing Lou won't make any difference.

[ruby23]

BTW BT, were you listening to B&B on the Score? They were talking about this and I thought they were gonna get some stats together, but I stopped listening before they talked about any.

[BT]

<!--quoteo(post=47530:date=Jul 1 2009, 05:13 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jul 1 2009, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->BTW BT, were you listening to B&B on the Score? They were talking about this and I thought they were gonna get some stats together, but I stopped listening before they talked about any.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


Exactly. I was just listening for a minute, but that is what they came up with. I think it's from 1900 on, but I might be wrong. I was on my way to softball, but given this conversation over the last few days, I had to post it before I left.

[PcB]

So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=47591:date=Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jul 1 2009, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, Piniella showed his "fire" and "passion" tonight by getting tossed. Does that help the people that want him canned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After the stats BT listed, I don't think there should be a camp that wants him canned (even though I was part of that clan).