Soriano is awful

[vitaminB]

I thought about this yesterday for a bit. Soriano needs to bulk up, add about 10, 15 pounds, which isn't that hard to do for a guy in his 30s and totally transform what he is. Move him to the 5 spot in the order and let him just be a banger. Or is his power based on his quick hands and the extra muscle wouldn't do much for him anyway? I don't know just a thought. He's going to have to make adjustments, cause it looks like his legs aren't going to get any better.

[BackyardLegend]

He needs to buck up and realize he can't lead-off forever. I mean hell, are we going to really bat this guy leadoff 4-5 years from now?

The best thing to do would be to bat him in the 5th spot now. Curtis Granderson had no problems making the switch to the middle of the order. I would argue that they are pretty similar players with Soriano having more pop. The only problem though is this team has no real leadoff hitter on it--and no real spots to upload one.

[rok]

I think Soriano will continue to lead off until 1) he can't run anymore (he's pretty much at that point now), or 2) we acquire or develop someone who fits the criteria of a classic leadoff hitter. I can't imagine he will be used in the same role even 2-3 years from now because his skills are clearly declining in every area aside from power, and our window of opportunity will probably have closed by then as well. We'll be forced to make a change at that point, which is exactly how this organization operates, but don't expect anything to happen anytime soon.

[Fella]

I think he will bat leadoff as long as Lou is the manager. After that, who knows.

I do think he will stay a good hitter, he is cold right now but he was super hot in April, at the end of the year his offensive numbers will be fine. He has always sucked on defense, his arm is still very good. The only part of his game that has really declined is his speed.

As for bulking up, I don't think that would help him at all, he uses his wrists and bat speed for power, not strength, I think gaining weight may even slow him down and hurt him more.

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=42890:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:05 AM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 8 2009, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think he will bat leadoff as long as Lou is the manager. After that, who knows.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Then we might as well get rid of Piniella now, because we can't go the distance with Soriano as our leadoff hitter.

Don't get me wrong, I have always liked what Soriano can do at the plate, but I never liked him as a lead-off hitter. He's good for one strikeout a game, and about one walk a week. His current on base percentage of .305 will go up--but not too normal leadoff levels. Honestly, I really hate to say this, but he is just as good leading off for us as Corey Patterson was a few years ago. Soriano is a much more dangerous hitter, but as far as the start of the game goes--it's a push between those two.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=42897:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:37 AM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 8 2009, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42890:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:05 AM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 8 2009, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think he will bat leadoff as long as Lou is the manager. After that, who knows.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Then we might as well get rid of Piniella now, because we can't go the distance with Soriano as our leadoff hitter.

Don't get me wrong, I have always liked what Soriano can do at the plate, but I never liked him as a lead-off hitter. He's good for one strikeout a game, and about one walk a week. His current on base percentage of .305 will go up--but not too normal leadoff levels. Honestly, I really hate to say this, but he is just as good leading off for us as Corey Patterson was a few years ago. Soriano is a much more dangerous hitter, but as far as the start of the game goes--it's a push between those two.
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I'm not so sure about that. Alf is no OBP machine, but he's averaged around .330-.340 since becoming a Cub. That isn't great, I understand that, but Patterson only came close to that the entire time he was here maybe one season, and never afterward.

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=42898:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:40 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jun 8 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not so sure about that. Alf is no OBP machine, but he's averaged around .330-.340 since becoming a Cub. That isn't great, I understand that, but Patterson only came close to that the entire time he was here maybe one season, and never afterward.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I know that's harsh. But I don't see his value leading off--just like I never saw Pattersons.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=42900:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:49 AM:name=BackyardLegend)-->QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 8 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42898:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:40 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jun 8 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not so sure about that. Alf is no OBP machine, but he's averaged around .330-.340 since becoming a Cub. That isn't great, I understand that, but Patterson only came close to that the entire time he was here maybe one season, and never afterward.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I know that's harsh. But I don't see his value leading off--just like I never saw Pattersons.
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I agree he doesn't provide much value in that role aside from the occasional leadoff HR. He still hits for average though and provides around a league average OBP. If it weren't for the fact that he feels most comfortable leading off and sees more fastballs a couple of ABs each game, I would agree with you. Eventually he needs to be moved down. I'm just not sure if it's time yet, at least not until someone else steps up as the obvious replacement.

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=42901:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:52 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jun 8 2009, 10:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42900:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:49 AM:name=BackyardLegend)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BackyardLegend @ Jun 8 2009, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42898:date=Jun 8 2009, 10:40 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jun 8 2009, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not so sure about that. Alf is no OBP machine, but he's averaged around .330-.340 since becoming a Cub. That isn't great, I understand that, but Patterson only came close to that the entire time he was here maybe one season, and never afterward.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I know that's harsh. But I don't see his value leading off--just like I never saw Pattersons.
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I agree he doesn't provide much value in that role aside from the occasional leadoff HR. He still hits for average though and provides around a league average OBP. If it weren't for the fact that he feels most comfortable leading off and sees more fastballs a couple of ABs each game, I would agree with you. Eventually he needs to be moved down. I'm just not sure if it's time yet, at least not until someone else steps up as the obvious replacement.
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I don't agree with the fact that he sees better pitches in a leadoff spot. The book is out on him and has been for years, and pitchers know he's not going to start the game off with a walk. So they can just throw a bunch of crap out there and see what happens. Chances are he's swinging, and if he hits a home run, oh well. At least then you know he's due for a K sometime in the later innings.

You're right though, if you move him down there's no one to bring up. But it's not like he's giving us anything up there. Bump him down now and see if he can work through his struggles with hopefully some people on base.

[Butcher]

Just add Soriano to the growing list of Cubs who have vaginas.

[Fella]

He definitely sees better pitches to leadoff the game, its not even a question, the stats have been posted before. He sees far more fastballs to start off the game than he does in his other ABs.

Also leading off the game this year Soriano is 17 for 48 with 5 HR and 2 walks in 50 games

.354 avg .380 OBP, 1.088 OPS when leading off the game.

I'd say that's just a touch better than Patterson could muster even in his wettest wildest dreams.

[Butcher]

Why Soriano ever sees a low fastball is beyond me. It's literally the only pitch he can hit. Anyone who throws him a pitch other than a slider away is a moron.

[Fella]

<!--quoteo(post=42931:date=Jun 8 2009, 12:02 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 8 2009, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Why Soriano ever sees a low fastball is beyond me. It's literally the only pitch he can hit. Anyone who throws him a pitch other than a slider away is a moron.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yep, and that's always been the main argument for those of us who want him to stay leadoff. Pitchers start the game off with fastballs, that's just the way it is. His numbers are significantly better his first at bat of the game than the rest of the time.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=42932:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:03 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 8 2009, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42931:date=Jun 8 2009, 12:02 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 8 2009, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Why Soriano ever sees a low fastball is beyond me. It's literally the only pitch he can hit. Anyone who throws him a pitch other than a slider away is a moron.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yep, and that's always been the main argument for those of us who want him to stay leadoff. Pitchers start the game off with fastballs, that's just the way it is. His numbers are significantly better his first at bat of the game than the rest of the time.
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Bingo. The facts are the facts. I know it doesn't seem like much, but if Soriano leads off an inning 1-2 times a game, that's 25-50% better first pitches for him to hit. Pitchers are dumb for not changing their approach to him as opposed to other hitters in the #1 hole, but you can't ignore the results.

[BackyardLegend]

<!--quoteo(post=42938:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:31 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jun 8 2009, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42932:date=Jun 8 2009, 01:03 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Jun 8 2009, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42931:date=Jun 8 2009, 12:02 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 8 2009, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Why Soriano ever sees a low fastball is beyond me. It's literally the only pitch he can hit. Anyone who throws him a pitch other than a slider away is a moron.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Yep, and that's always been the main argument for those of us who want him to stay leadoff. Pitchers start the game off with fastballs, that's just the way it is. His numbers are significantly better his first at bat of the game than the rest of the time.
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Bingo. The facts are the facts. I know it doesn't seem like much, but if Soriano leads off an inning 1-2 times a game, that's 25-50% better first pitches for him to hit. Pitchers are dumb for not changing their approach to him as opposed to other hitters in the #1 hole, but you can't ignore the results.
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But couldn't you make this argument for any batter. Put "insert player's name" at the 1-hole, and they'll see better pitches. But other teams don't just put their best hitter up top because they think that's his best chance to see a fastball. That's pretty dumb logic if you ask me.

If you look at his career stats batting 5th, it's really not that bad. Sure his AVG/OBP takes a little dip, but him hitting .270 as the 5 hitter wouldn't bother me. Not to mention, his 162 game RBI avg is 97 batting leadoff, and 117 batting 5th. I'll take those 20 extra RBI's we could get.

Think about it, back in 2003 we scored first it seemed in every playoff game. We were able to do that because a real leadoff hitter--Kenny Lofton--was making it happen. There is no way in a playoff situation that Soriano goes up there looking to get on and move across the bases. Considering he's 3-28 for us leading off in the Playoffs, I'll take my chances with someone else up top.