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<!--quoteo(post=25347:date=Mar 27 2009, 08:30 AM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Mar 27 2009, 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I wonder if KB would have the same argument if Ricky were on the Cubs during his prime?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ricky: greatest leadoff hitter of all-time. Stole 1,400 bases. Could take a walk. Is Soriano known for getting on base via the base on balls? Because Rickey walked more than Babe Ruth. Second all-time in walks. 2,190 walks.
Soriano? Less than 300. Which leads to the most obvious comparison about their respective leadoff abilities:
Career OBP-Soriano .329
Ricky-.401
I love you Andy, but that's quite a case of comparing apples to watermelons.
To the rest of you guys: the "comfort" thing is wildly overrated. You honestly think that if we batted Alf cleanup for the entire season, that he'd hit .128?
.228?
Of course not. He'd bitch for a couple weeks, perhaps struggle for a couple weeks, and then start doing what he's done his whole life: hit the baseball really well.
In a short time, it would become his new routine, and he'd adapt to it. Remember how much he bitched, moaned, cried, and behaved like an ass about moving from 2nd base to LF? Then he was forced to do it, and was fine; played LF FAR better than he ever played 2nd base, and he hit way better too.
He's a great athlete: of <i>course</i> he could hit anywhere in the lineup and produce.
But if he were batting 4th or 5th, when he hit the baseball really well, there'd be a lot more men on base while he did it.
IMO, that would be a good thing. But it is only an opinion.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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Put me in the KB camp as well.
The *only* reason to lead Soriano off (and it isn't a very good reason to begin with) is his speed. Now that he doesn't steal bases nearly as much as he used to, that reason isn't really a reason anymore.
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<!--quoteo(post=25355:date=Mar 27 2009, 08:13 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 27 2009, 08:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->and thats what we've always known. its funny to me that we still talk about moving soriano down when its clear thats never gonna happen. soriano hits better from the leadoff spot just sandberg used to hit better out of the second spot. its comfort thing. if the lineup was weak, i'd be more in favor of soriano batting down in the order, but with the way this lineup is constituted, we can not only live with soriano in the #1 hole, but we can have success with him there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bingo.
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<!--quoteo(post=25406:date=Mar 27 2009, 02:41 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 27 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Put me in the KB camp as well.
The *only* reason to lead Soriano off (and it isn't a very good reason to begin with) is his speed. Now that he doesn't steal bases nearly as much as he used to, that reason isn't really a reason anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not the only reason. The main reason is because he won't perform as well anywhere else in the lineup.
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I'm just curious, if it's not Soriano, who do you all want leading off? If you say Fontenot, you do realize it will be Miles leading off when Fontenot's not playing right? Ditto for when Theriot's not playing, which will be more this year if Lou's serious about getting the regulars more rest. It's funny too because these are the same people that argue about getting your best hitters more at bats.
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<!--quoteo(post=25409:date=Mar 27 2009, 03:47 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Mar 27 2009, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=25406:date=Mar 27 2009, 02:41 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 27 2009, 02:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Put me in the KB camp as well.
The *only* reason to lead Soriano off (and it isn't a very good reason to begin with) is his speed. Now that he doesn't steal bases nearly as much as he used to, that reason isn't really a reason anymore.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's not the only reason. The main reason is because he won't perform as well anywhere else in the lineup.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think he'd be just fine after a period of adjustment.
Anyway, I don't want to get sucked into this argument. Fans tend to think lineup order is of tantamount importance to the outcome of the game when it really isn't.
The season can't start soon enough.
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<!--quoteo(post=25414:date=Mar 27 2009, 03:57 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Mar 27 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm just curious, if it's not Soriano, who do you all want leading off? If you say Fontenot, you do realize it will be Miles leading off when Fontenot's not playing right? Ditto for when Theriot's not playing, which will be more this year if Lou's serious about getting the regulars more rest. It's funny too because these are the same people that argue about getting your best hitters more at bats.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd bat Lee first. His SLG is down, his OBP and AVG are still good, and he wouldn't hit into as many double-plays.
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<!--quoteo(post=25416:date=Mar 27 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 27 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=25414:date=Mar 27 2009, 03:57 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Mar 27 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm just curious, if it's not Soriano, who do you all want leading off? If you say Fontenot, you do realize it will be Miles leading off when Fontenot's not playing right? Ditto for when Theriot's not playing, which will be more this year if Lou's serious about getting the regulars more rest. It's funny too because these are the same people that argue about getting your best hitters more at bats.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd bat Lee first. His SLG is down, his OBP and AVG are still good, and he wouldn't hit into as many double-plays.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For all of those reasons, the Yankees just moved Jeter up to to the leadoff spot.
For the Cubs, Theriot seems ideally suited for our team's leadoff: he has no power, but it's not really needed at leadoff (and it IS highly desirable everywhere else in the lineup.)
He gets on base at a rate far superior to Alf. Has good speed; at this point, he's probably a better runner than Alf.
Theriot
Lee
Bradley
makes a damn good 1-2-3
Butch, I know you don't want to get sucked into it, but I'd like to once and for all discuss the matter of Alf turning into Ronnie Cedeno if he bats 2nd or 5th or wherever. Do you honestly think a hitter of Alf's great skill would never again be able to be productive, due to lack of "comfort?" Do you think, given 500 At bats in the 5-hole, that his average would drop 100 points, and that he'd hit only 10 homers instead of 30?
Yes or No?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=25427:date=Mar 27 2009, 04:43 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 27 2009, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=25416:date=Mar 27 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 27 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=25414:date=Mar 27 2009, 03:57 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Mar 27 2009, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm just curious, if it's not Soriano, who do you all want leading off? If you say Fontenot, you do realize it will be Miles leading off when Fontenot's not playing right? Ditto for when Theriot's not playing, which will be more this year if Lou's serious about getting the regulars more rest. It's funny too because these are the same people that argue about getting your best hitters more at bats.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd bat Lee first. His SLG is down, his OBP and AVG are still good, and he wouldn't hit into as many double-plays.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For all of those reasons, the Yankees just moved Jeter up to to the leadoff spot.
For the Cubs, Theriot seems ideally suited for our team's leadoff: he has no power, but it's not really needed at leadoff (and it IS highly desirable everywhere else in the lineup.)
He gets on base at a rate far superior to Alf. Has good speed; at this point, he's probably a better runner than Alf.
Theriot
Lee
Bradley
makes a damn good 1-2-3
Butch, I know you don't want to get sucked into it, but I'd like to once and for all discuss the matter of Alf turning into Ronnie Cedeno if he bats 2nd or 5th or wherever. Do you honestly think a hitter of Alf's great skill would never again be able to be productive, due to lack of "comfort?" Do you think, given 500 At bats in the 5-hole, that his average would drop 100 points, and that he'd hit only 10 homers instead of 30?
Yes or No?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm on your side in the Alf argument, KB. I said if we moved him, he'd be just fine (after a period of adjustment, perhaps).
Theriot is a shitty baserunner, by the way. He sucks as stealing bases and he makes boneheaded decisions on the basepaths.
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Alf ain't Einstein out there either. They're both speedy; their baserunning differences are negligible.
Their power differences are not remotely negligible. They're gigantic.
Alf has cleanup power. Yes, his OBP would indicate being a 6th or 7th-hole hitter, but coupled with his great power, I'd say 5th in the order is just about right.
Quick question: has there ever been a team in the entire history of baseball who batted their best home-run hitter at leadoff? There may have been...I'm just wondering.
Anyone know?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=25430:date=Mar 27 2009, 05:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 27 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Alf ain't Einstein out there either. They're both speedy; their baserunning differences are negligible.
Their power differences are not remotely negligible. They're gigantic.
Alf has cleanup power. Yes, his OBP would indicate being a 6th or 7th-hole hitter, but coupled with his great power, I'd say 5th in the order is just about right.
Quick question: has there ever been a team in the entire history of baseball who batted their best home-run hitter at leadoff? There may have been...I'm just wondering.
Anyone know?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying I'd rather have Alf lead off than Theriot. I wouldn't. All I said is that Theriot is a shitty baserunner. 22 stolen bases and 13 caught stealing last year. His percentage was actually great the year before. I don't know what happened.
The answer to your question is the Cubs. And the Nationals (when Soriano was a Nat). [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]
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Theriot just looked a lot slower, and as you said was actually a superb base stealer prior to 2008. Anyway, if he's batting 8th, he's not going to be stealing many bases.
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<!--quoteo(post=25435:date=Mar 27 2009, 05:10 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 27 2009, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=25430:date=Mar 27 2009, 05:03 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 27 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Quick question: has there ever been a team in the entire history of baseball who batted their best home-run hitter at leadoff? There may have been...I'm just wondering.
Anyone know?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The answer to your question is the Cubs. And the Nationals (when Soriano was a Nat). [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif[/img]
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I lobbed a softball up there, and was kind of hoping that Clapp would indignantly say "Yes, I <i>can</i> think of one team in history: the 2008 Chicago Cubs, who by the way, led the league in scoring! So there!"
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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