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<!--quoteo(post=12793:date=Jan 21 2009, 12:40 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jan 21 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Serviceable compared to what? How many teams do you think are able to push out as many prospects as the Cubs have in the last 6 or 7 years? Certainly there are teams that have done better, but there are quite a few that have done much worse. Especially if you include the fact that the Cubs almost NEVER dump high salaried guys for impact prospects. Yes, the Marlins have developed quite a few more prospects than the Cubs, but a vast majority of them have come from other teams in dump trades.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... some teams are better and some teams are worse. Isn't that the definition of serviceable? Our farm system is a C, it's average which I would call serviceable.
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."
- Butcher
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<!--quoteo(post=12777:date=Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12733:date=Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Brock...sure, the system hasn't really produced any all-stars aside from Soto. However, other teams have thought pretty highly of our minor league system to agree to trade players like Lee, Harden, and Ramirez. Yeah, we haven't produced anyone aside from Soto, but somehow Hendry still gets these teams to believe they are getting young players who will produce at a ML level while we get players that do great for us. Now, if we don't get Peavy this trade is a little different. However, we still had to get something for Pie. Even if we don't make a move to get Peavy now, there is nothing saying we won't get him midseason and I honestly believe that is the reason we are stockpiling all these arms in trades.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Runny's I don't think these trades you speak of have as much to do with our minor league system as much to do with the other teams inability to afford said player (ARam, Harden, D Lee). I really don't think the Marlins thought getting Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee was the answer. I also don't think that the Pirates getting Booby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and Matt Bruback was because the amazing strentgh of our farm system.
Harden I think I could give you.. Murton might be something kinda decent and I think Gallagher will be a good 3rd starter.
I just think saying our farm system is good because Hendry was able to swing these deals might be giving it a little too much credit.
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Yep, I agree 100% with this.
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<!--quoteo(post=12798:date=Jan 21 2009, 12:54 PM:name=Brock)-->QUOTE (Brock @ Jan 21 2009, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12777:date=Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12733:date=Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Brock...sure, the system hasn't really produced any all-stars aside from Soto. However, other teams have thought pretty highly of our minor league system to agree to trade players like Lee, Harden, and Ramirez. Yeah, we haven't produced anyone aside from Soto, but somehow Hendry still gets these teams to believe they are getting young players who will produce at a ML level while we get players that do great for us. Now, if we don't get Peavy this trade is a little different. However, we still had to get something for Pie. Even if we don't make a move to get Peavy now, there is nothing saying we won't get him midseason and I honestly believe that is the reason we are stockpiling all these arms in trades.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Runny's I don't think these trades you speak of have as much to do with our minor league system as much to do with the other teams inability to afford said player (ARam, Harden, D Lee). I really don't think the Marlins thought getting Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee was the answer. I also don't think that the Pirates getting Booby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and Matt Bruback was because the amazing strentgh of our farm system.
Harden I think I could give you.. Murton might be something kinda decent and I think Gallagher will be a good 3rd starter.
I just think saying our farm system is good because Hendry was able to swing these deals might be giving it a little too much credit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I agree 100% with this.
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I just realized I called him "Booby"
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."
- Butcher
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<!--quoteo(post=12802:date=Jan 21 2009, 12:57 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 21 2009, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12798:date=Jan 21 2009, 12:54 PM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Jan 21 2009, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12777:date=Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 21 2009, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12733:date=Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ Jan 21 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Brock...sure, the system hasn't really produced any all-stars aside from Soto. However, other teams have thought pretty highly of our minor league system to agree to trade players like Lee, Harden, and Ramirez. Yeah, we haven't produced anyone aside from Soto, but somehow Hendry still gets these teams to believe they are getting young players who will produce at a ML level while we get players that do great for us. Now, if we don't get Peavy this trade is a little different. However, we still had to get something for Pie. Even if we don't make a move to get Peavy now, there is nothing saying we won't get him midseason and I honestly believe that is the reason we are stockpiling all these arms in trades.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Runny's I don't think these trades you speak of have as much to do with our minor league system as much to do with the other teams inability to afford said player (ARam, Harden, D Lee). I really don't think the Marlins thought getting Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee was the answer. I also don't think that the Pirates getting Booby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and Matt Bruback was because the amazing strentgh of our farm system.
Harden I think I could give you.. Murton might be something kinda decent and I think Gallagher will be a good 3rd starter.
I just think saying our farm system is good because Hendry was able to swing these deals might be giving it a little too much credit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I agree 100% with this.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just realized I called him "Booby"
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah that's the part I most agreed with.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I really don't think the Marlins thought getting Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee was the answer.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they did. Choi was the 20th ranked prospect in all of baseball at the time. In 2001 he was ranked number 3 overall. The guy had a lot of value.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I also don't think that the Pirates getting Booby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and Matt Bruback was because the amazing strentgh of our farm system.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, Hill was the 45th ranked prospect in MLB at the time. Also, ARam had put up a .666 OPS in 2002 (the season before we acquired him of course) and out of his 5 years in the bigs at that point, he had only put up a .700+ OPS once. He wasn't a sure thing by any means and I remember quite a few people being upset that we gave up a well regarded prospect for him (although Lofton really made the deal in most people's minds at the time).
The problem is you're looking at these deals in retrospect. Now, we know that Choi and Hill turned out to be nothings, but at that time people had a lot of faith in their abilities.
At the time, these trades were not looked at as lop-sided.
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<!--quoteo(post=12773:date=Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sox fans are fine<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where you lost me.
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<!--quoteo(post=12812:date=Jan 21 2009, 01:53 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 21 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12773:date=Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sox fans are fine<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where you lost me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Inexcusable.
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<!--quoteo(post=12811:date=Jan 21 2009, 01:31 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jan 21 2009, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->I really don't think the Marlins thought getting Hee Seop Choi for Derrek Lee was the answer.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes they did. Choi was the 20th ranked prospect in all of baseball at the time. In 2001 he was ranked number 3 overall. The guy had a lot of value.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I also don't think that the Pirates getting Booby Hill, Jose Hernandez, and Matt Bruback was because the amazing strentgh of our farm system.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, Hill was the 45th ranked prospect in MLB at the time. Also, ARam had put up a .666 OPS in 2002 (the season before we acquired him of course) and out of his 5 years in the bigs at that point, he had only put up a .700+ OPS once. He wasn't a sure thing by any means and I remember quite a few people being upset that we gave up a well regarded prospect for him (although Lofton really made the deal in most people's minds at the time).
The problem is you're looking at these deals in retrospect. Now, we know that Choi and Hill turned out to be nothings, but at that time people had a lot of faith in their abilities.
At the time, these trades were not looked at as lop-sided.
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yep. i 100% agree with this. there's no doubt in my mind that the marlins thought choi was gonna be better than he was. i also don't doubt that the pirates thought hill was gonna be good. there were a whole lot of cub fans that thought both of those guys were gonna be good. don't you remember the choi backlash when that trade went down? there were people still calling it a bad trade for the cubs almost a year later.
Wang.
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Also, no one put a gun to the Pirates, Oakland or Marlins GMs to make them trade with Hendry. If our minor league talent was perceived to be so horrible, then those trades would never have happened in the first place. And if not, then Hendry is a much more capable GM than we give him credit for being able to market crap as gold to other teams, Either way, someone is doing something right, and at the very least our organization is doing everything it can to improve the ML team given the MiL (limted or otherwise) talent that we have. That has to count for something.
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<!--quoteo(post=12772:date=Jan 21 2009, 11:48 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 21 2009, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Did anyone see the ball last night where he had all of the troops from Chicago via satellite?
He asked them go around and introduce themselves and say what part of Chicago they are from. Here's kind of how it went.
"From Chicago."
"South Side? West Side?"
"West Side, sir."
"Most importantly...Sox fan or Cubs fan."
*laughs* "Cubs fan, sir."
The next person gets the microphone.
"From Naperville. Cubs fan."
Next person gets the microphone.
"From Chicago, and I'm a Cubs fan."
Obama is getting restless.
I think it was four or five people before they got to the first White Sox fan.
"OK. It looks like we're outnumbered, but that's alright."
Anyway...it was pretty funny.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My girlfriend called about it. She said it was hilarious.
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<!--quoteo(post=12817:date=Jan 21 2009, 02:02 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jan 21 2009, 02:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Also, no one put a gun to the Pirates, Oakland or Marlins GMs to make them trade with Hendry. If our minor league talent was perceived to be so horrible, then those trades would never have happened in the first place. And if not, then Hendry is a much more capable GM than we give for being able to market crap as gold to other teams, Either way, someone is doing something right, and at the very least our organization is doing everything it can to improve the ML team given the MiL (limted or otherwise) that we have. That has to count for something.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
exactly. and if the cubs were just giving away shit then the marlins and pirates could have made trades with any team. they apparently wanted what the cubs had or the deals would never have been made.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=12819:date=Jan 21 2009, 02:03 PM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Jan 21 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12772:date=Jan 21 2009, 11:48 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 21 2009, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Did anyone see the ball last night where he had all of the troops from Chicago via satellite?
He asked them go around and introduce themselves and say what part of Chicago they are from. Here's kind of how it went.
"From Chicago."
"South Side? West Side?"
"West Side, sir."
"Most importantly...Sox fan or Cubs fan."
*laughs* "Cubs fan, sir."
The next person gets the microphone.
"From Naperville. Cubs fan."
Next person gets the microphone.
"From Chicago, and I'm a Cubs fan."
Obama is getting restless.
I think it was four or five people before they got to the first White Sox fan.
"OK. It looks like we're outnumbered, but that's alright."
Anyway...it was pretty funny.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My girlfriend called about it. She said it was hilarious.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone needs to find a video of this
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<!--quoteo(post=12812:date=Jan 21 2009, 01:53 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 21 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12773:date=Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sox fans are fine<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where you lost me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't choose to like the Cubs, it just happened. Lots of Sox fans don't choose to like the Sox, it just happens. Cheering for an opposing team isn't the problem, cheering for an opposing team and being a total douchebag is.
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<!--quoteo(post=12832:date=Jan 21 2009, 02:50 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 21 2009, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12812:date=Jan 21 2009, 01:53 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 21 2009, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12773:date=Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jan 21 2009, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sox fans are fine<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's where you lost me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't choose to like the Cubs, it just happened. Lots of Sox fans don't choose to like the Sox, it just happens. Cheering for an opposing team isn't the problem, cheering for an opposing team and being a total douchebag is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Choosing to like one team to spite the other is definitely a part the process of indoctrination (for many) on one side of town. I won't say which one.
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<!--quoteo(post=12797:date=Jan 21 2009, 12:53 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 21 2009, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12793:date=Jan 21 2009, 12:40 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 21 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Serviceable compared to what? How many teams do you think are able to push out as many prospects as the Cubs have in the last 6 or 7 years? Certainly there are teams that have done better, but there are quite a few that have done much worse. Especially if you include the fact that the Cubs almost NEVER dump high salaried guys for impact prospects. Yes, the Marlins have developed quite a few more prospects than the Cubs, but a vast majority of them have come from other teams in dump trades.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... some teams are better and some teams are worse. Isn't that the definition of serviceable? Our farm system is a C, it's average which I would call serviceable.
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No, some teams are better, MOST teams are worse. That's not serviceable.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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