2021 Team

[jeffy]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rok" data-cid="359447" data-time="1627823659">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Butcher" data-cid="359427" data-time="1627740075">
https://pointlessexercise.substack.com/p...e-all-gone

I used to love Desipio, but I find myself more and more irritated with him.  I used to find him hilarious when he'd shit on other team's and their players, but the 700 tweets a day shitting on Cubs players and how much he hates the team has really rubbed me wrong.  I'm bummed enough about the direction this team has gone in, I don't need him to endlessly rub salt in the wound.  I'm not real sure why he's still a fan, nothing they do seems to make him happy.</blockquote>Couldn't have said it better myself. I had to delete the Pointless Exercise pod back in the offseason. Excruciating listen.</blockquote>His schtick can get old, for sure, but I didnt disagree with a single word of that article. Did you?</blockquote>It's all his opinion so I'm not sure what I'm even agreeing or disagreeing with. I don't agree that the Rickettses ordered Jed to sell off. I mean they also included money in many of these trades, so it wasn't primarily financially driven. Other than never wanting to trade with the Sox ever, I'm also not sure that Madrigal is being evaluated properly. He's always been known as a decent defensive 2B, and I acknowledge that he has little power, but he's hit everywhere. The game is changing again, so it's hard for me to determine his long-term value without putting it into context with how Jed plans to construct the rest of the roster. I agree though that a middle infield of Hoerner and Madrigal scares me defensively, but we'll see. And despite the Kimbrel Renaissance, he isn't anywhere close to a sure thing. His wildness has returned since the ASG, and scouts I'm sure have picked up on this. It wasn't that long ago that we were talking about him being a sunk cost. I don't think we were fleeced on this or any of the other trades. Maybe I'm delusional or heartless, but I was 100% ready to move on from this core. I've been ready for probably 3 years since the offense broke. I will love Rizzo, Javy and KB forever, but it's a cruel business and I highly doubt Jed bumbled into any of these deals or was being pushed by ownership to deal anyone. Still fuck the Rickettses either way.</blockquote>I agree with all this. I will say that the one point that did resonate with me from the article is the idea that we had been conditioned to evaluate the core and their success, or lack there of, as rather static, as in they either needed to get it done or they should be broken up and the team should start fresh. The Dodgers had a strong core that would fall short and then they would do things like add Mookie Betts. I don't remember there ever being an attitude of "let's add to this foundation in a impact way". Once it was determined the offense "broke", adding a superstar wasn't an option to fix it, it had to be fixed itself or this. Maybe only the Dodgers and Yanks can think that way, but it would be nice if the Cubs could. Thus it does circle back to your last point.</blockquote>


Nick Castellanos cones to mind, but then they kinda threw in the towel after 2019.

[rok]

The narrative will continue to change post-mortem, but I don't place blame for the failures of this era of Cubs baseball to sustain its success at all on the core. The FO never found the right mix of complementary players from which to build around the core. Whether it was a systemic scouting, drafting and development issue is not really up for debate, and if you keep making mistakes there and not adding young controllable talent on a consistent basis, and rely too heavily on the free agent market to plug holes with short-term deals, eventually ownership will justifiably cut off or limit the financial resources. Even the Dodgers and Yankees have danced around the CBT payroll threshold to avoid paying penalties, so this isn't unique to the Ricketts family. They suck, but for many different reasons than just suddenly pretending to be poor.

[VanSlawAndCottoCheese]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="VanSlawAndCottoCheese" data-cid="359437" data-time="1627755148">
Butch, I can't believe we're talking about <a class="bbc_url" href="https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-rides-the-red-line-to-the-south-side/" title="External link">the same Nick Madrigal</a>. His defense was <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=400&type=1&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31" title="External link">absolutely fine </a>(some might even say good!) this year; anyone telling you different is probably going off of his SSS from last year. I think the trade is fair, perhaps in the Cubs favor. The idea that Hahn took Hoyer is fantastical.

 

And Kimbrel has been outstanding this year, sure, but he wasn't in 2019 nor 2020, and Madrigal and Heuer are players with major track records, not proven prospects. I can't help but think that if this same trade was done but it was with the Rangers instead of the White Sox, you'd be fine with this trade.

To be fair, I havent seen much of his actual play. So maybe his weakness on defense is overblown. But Ive seen his baseball reference page and I know for certain that if Nico and Nico Jr is our double play combo, we are fucked. You might have been able to get away with a 2B and SS who combine for 4 home runs back in the 70s, but not anymore.



You also have to look at Kimbrels value in context. What type of player helps a playoff team more in October than an absolute lockdown reliever? He was our most valuable trade chip and he isnt even really a rental. And this was the best Hoyer could get in return? He got fleeced. Theres no other way to look at it. Its embarrassing how badly he got fleeced.
 


</blockquote>
 

Honestly, this sounds as crazy to me as "the election was stolen," man. It's one thing to think the White Sox won the trade, but to think that Hoyer got fleeced is absolute madness. The only way to think that right now, when everyone with real baseball knowledge says differently is to think you are a better GM then Hoyer. It's to assume that every team that was calling in on Kimbrel were offering better players than Madrigal/Heuer and Hoyer refused. It's to assume that other teams aren't eying 2019-2020 Kimbrel with suspicion. And it's undervaluing Madrigal--and Heuer for that matter.

 

It really disturbs me to see you engage in this glorification of Rick Hahn, Butch.

[VanSlawAndCottoCheese]

 

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Butcher" data-cid="359427" data-time="1627740075">
<a class="bbc_url" href="https://pointlessexercise.substack.com/p/instant-analysis-theyre-all-gone" title="External link">https://pointlessexercise.substack.com/p/instant-analysis-theyre-all-gone</a>

I used to love Desipio, but I find myself more and more irritated with him.  I used to find him hilarious when he'd shit on other team's and their players, but the 700 tweets a day shitting on Cubs players and how much he hates the team has really rubbed me wrong.  I'm bummed enough about the direction this team has gone in, I don't need him to endlessly rub salt in the wound.  I'm not real sure why he's still a fan, nothing they do seems to make him happy.</blockquote>
Couldn't have said it better myself. I had to delete the Pointless Exercise pod back in the offseason. Excruciating listen.</blockquote>
His schtick can get old, for sure, but I didnt disagree with a single word of that article. Did you?</blockquote>
It's all his opinion so I'm not sure what I'm even agreeing or disagreeing with. I don't agree that the Rickettses ordered Jed to sell off. I mean they also included money in many of these trades, so it wasn't primarily financially driven. Other than never wanting to trade with the Sox ever, I'm also not sure that Madrigal is being evaluated properly. He's always been known as a decent defensive 2B, and I acknowledge that he has little power, but he's hit everywhere. The game is changing again, so it's hard for me to determine his long-term value without putting it into context with how Jed plans to construct the rest of the roster. I agree though that a middle infield of Hoerner and Madrigal scares me defensively, but we'll see. And despite the Kimbrel Renaissance, he isn't anywhere close to a sure thing. His wildness has returned since the ASG, and scouts I'm sure have picked up on this. It wasn't that long ago that we were talking about him being a sunk cost. I don't think we were fleeced on this or any of the other trades. Maybe I'm delusional or heartless, but I was 100% ready to move on from this core. I've been ready for probably 3 years since the offense broke. I will love Rizzo, Javy and KB forever, but it's a cruel business and I highly doubt Jed bumbled into any of these deals or was being pushed by ownership to deal anyone. Still fuck the Rickettses either way.</blockquote>
I agree with all this. I will say that the one point that did resonate with me from the article is the idea that we had been conditioned to evaluate the core and their success, or lack there of, as rather static, as in they either needed to get it done or they should be broken up and the team should start fresh. The Dodgers had a strong core that would fall short and then they would do things like add Mookie Betts. I don't remember there ever being an attitude of "let's add to this foundation in a impact way". Once it was determined the offense "broke", adding a superstar wasn't an option to fix it, it had to be fixed itself or this. Maybe only the Dodgers and Yanks can think that way, but it would be nice if the Cubs could. Thus it does circle back to your last point.
 


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The biggest difference is that the Dodgers and Yankees maintained wonderful farm systems. The Cubs got lapped in bringing on strong international prospects after Torres/Jimenez, and their recent drafts have been lackluster. Perhaps it's a development problem. I'm not smart enough to know that.

 

They SHOULD have been able to replicate the Dodger/Yankees (or even the Red Sox) models. They failed for sure.

[VanSlawAndCottoCheese]

MLB.com needs to knock off this bullshit right now.

 

[funkster]

I'm without a doubt to see them go, but I agree with Clapp, I'm glad Jed picked a lane instead of half assing it.  The reality is, maybe I'm being a meatball, a few good signings can have us right back in it pretty quickly.  

 

 

Side note, anyone else think Wisdom has a shot at ROY?  His numbers are pretty damn good.

[Butcher]

 

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="VanSlawAndCottoCheese" data-cid="359437" data-time="1627755148">
Butch, I can't believe we're talking about <a class="bbc_url" href="https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-rides-the-red-line-to-the-south-side/" title="External link">the same Nick Madrigal</a>. His defense was <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=400&type=1&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31" title="External link">absolutely fine </a>(some might even say good!) this year; anyone telling you different is probably going off of his SSS from last year. I think the trade is fair, perhaps in the Cubs favor. The idea that Hahn took Hoyer is fantastical.

 

And Kimbrel has been outstanding this year, sure, but he wasn't in 2019 nor 2020, and Madrigal and Heuer are players with major track records, not proven prospects. I can't help but think that if this same trade was done but it was with the Rangers instead of the White Sox, you'd be fine with this trade.

To be fair, I havent seen much of his actual play. So maybe his weakness on defense is overblown. But Ive seen his baseball reference page and I know for certain that if Nico and Nico Jr is our double play combo, we are fucked. You might have been able to get away with a 2B and SS who combine for 4 home runs back in the 70s, but not anymore.



You also have to look at Kimbrels value in context. What type of player helps a playoff team more in October than an absolute lockdown reliever? He was our most valuable trade chip and he isnt even really a rental. And this was the best Hoyer could get in return? He got fleeced. Theres no other way to look at it. Its embarrassing how badly he got fleeced.
 


</blockquote>
 

Honestly, this sounds as crazy to me as "the election was stolen," man. It's one thing to think the White Sox won the trade, but to think that Hoyer got fleeced is absolute madness. The only way to think that right now, when everyone with real baseball knowledge says differently is to think you are a better GM then Hoyer. It's to assume that every team that was calling in on Kimbrel were offering better players than Madrigal/Heuer and Hoyer refused. It's to assume that other teams aren't eying 2019-2020 Kimbrel with suspicion. And it's undervaluing Madrigal--and Heuer for that matter.

 

It really disturbs me to see you engage in this glorification of Rick Hahn, Butch.

 

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</blockquote>

 

First off, fuck Rick Hahn.

 

What, because Hoyer is smart it isn't possible that he got fleeced? Theo, who is widely accepted as one of the greatest GMs of all time, got absolutely humiliated in the Quintana trade. It happens even to the best GMs. Maybe Hoyer didn't have the bandwidth to execute all of these trades properly as the clock was ticking. Maybe he's overvaluing contact hitting as a skill because the offense as a whole has been very strikeout-prone the last few years (bringing Sogard to the roster this season might speak to that, too). Maybe he accepted a lesser offer because Madrigal is his goddamned nephew. You're right -- I don't know all of the details. I don't have any insider knowledge about what other teams were offering or if they were nervous about Kimbrel not being entirely "fixed" or anything else. But given that Kimbrel was our biggest trade chip in this situation, I firmly believe he could have and should have gotten more.

 

And now I'm seeing this quote from Hoyer that the Core weren't willing to negotiate and that the Cubs actually made them all very good offers. I don't buy that for a fucking second. This feels like corporate damage control and it makes me want to take a shower. I'm beginning to think Hoyer isn't the golden boy that we all assumed he was as Theo's protege.

[rok]

Couldn't agree more, Funk. Time to do what needed to be done 2 years ago. And as crazy as it seems at age 30, does Wisdom even have any serious competition for ROY? I haven't been paying close attention to other teams, but it's a sad state of affairs in prospect land. Maybe Dylan Carlson or Jazz Chisolm deserve some attention, but it's not really close.

[1060Ivy]

Message from Ricketts to STH



Building the Next Great Cubs Team



Dear Dumb Ass Cub fans who we’ve been fleeced, (add some poetic license there)



The past week has been extremely hard for everyone, especially our team and our fans. It's impossible to properly prepare for parting with players who personify what it means to be a Cub. While we believe the decisions we took were right for our organization, they were nonetheless difficult to make.



For nearly a decade, we've had the joy of watching Anthony Rizzo, Javy Báez and Kris Bryant set franchise records, win countless awards and become World Series champions and amazing ambassadors for our franchise and city. Their individual and collective contributions to our organization cannot be overstated. They are forever etched in Cubs history and the hearts of our fans.



Keeping our core together as long as we did helped create one of the most successful eras of Cubs baseball. It wasn't without a price, as we traded several promising prospects from 2016-20 in our quest to win another World Series. Over the past few weeks, it became clear it was time to make decisions focused on our future not our past; however, we do not regret pouring everything we had into keeping this championship window open as long as possible.



As David Ross said, the greatest legacy of Anthony, Javy and Kris is they were part of a team that raised expectations. Cubs fans are no longer content with merely making the playoffs. As we reset our team, please know we share your higher expectations. With five postseason appearances in the last six years, including reaching the NLCS three times and our historic World Series championship, sustainable on-field success is the new standard.



We're focused on replenishing our farm system and reloading our roster to build our next great Cubs team. The recent addition of several young, high-ceiling players, a highly effective player development system and additional financial resources underpin our position of strength.



Your support is critical to our success, and I want to thank you for your incredible loyalty now and through the years. During a season without fans due to COVID-19, you remained committed to our team, and you helped bring life and magic back to the Friendly Confines this year. You were extremely patient as we worked to build a championship roster and restore Wrigley Field. You believed in our plan to win and trusted us to deliver on our commitment to play championship baseball in the greatest ballpark in America. We did, and I assure you, we will do it again soon.



We understand it might take a little time to process these changes as we integrate new players into our already talented roster. If the past tells us anything, watching a remarkable team come together is extremely exciting and rewarding, especially when everyone is aligned on the goal of winning the World Series. Highly anticipated call-ups. Wrigley Field debuts. Immediate big-league impact. It's all part of what makes our game so special. We're grateful for the chance to share in that joy and journey together again.



Sincerely,

Tom

[1060Ivy]

BTW Funk, I don’t believe the Cubs are a few players away from being competitive. The team prior to Friday was a few signings away from the ranks of the Dodgers, Rays, etc. The current roster is probably 6 - 9 players away and folks that will likely require years to assemble. Could they be competitive in NL Central in less time? Probably but again I’m not expecting much in free agent signings for at least a 2-3 years till basically Ricketts is forced to spend to limit his other assets losing more value

[funkster]

Of course you don't.

[funkster]

 

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Butcher" data-cid="359446" data-time="1627794485">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="VanSlawAndCottoCheese" data-cid="359437" data-time="1627755148">
Butch, I can't believe we're talking about <a class="bbc_url" href="https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-rides-the-red-line-to-the-south-side/" title="External link">the same Nick Madrigal</a>. His defense was <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=400&type=1&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31" title="External link">absolutely fine </a>(some might even say good!) this year; anyone telling you different is probably going off of his SSS from last year. I think the trade is fair, perhaps in the Cubs favor. The idea that Hahn took Hoyer is fantastical.

 

And Kimbrel has been outstanding this year, sure, but he wasn't in 2019 nor 2020, and Madrigal and Heuer are players with major track records, not proven prospects. I can't help but think that if this same trade was done but it was with the Rangers instead of the White Sox, you'd be fine with this trade.

To be fair, I havent seen much of his actual play. So maybe his weakness on defense is overblown. But Ive seen his baseball reference page and I know for certain that if Nico and Nico Jr is our double play combo, we are fucked. You might have been able to get away with a 2B and SS who combine for 4 home runs back in the 70s, but not anymore.



You also have to look at Kimbrels value in context. What type of player helps a playoff team more in October than an absolute lockdown reliever? He was our most valuable trade chip and he isnt even really a rental. And this was the best Hoyer could get in return? He got fleeced. Theres no other way to look at it. Its embarrassing how badly he got fleeced.
 


</blockquote>
 

Honestly, this sounds as crazy to me as "the election was stolen," man. It's one thing to think the White Sox won the trade, but to think that Hoyer got fleeced is absolute madness. The only way to think that right now, when everyone with real baseball knowledge says differently is to think you are a better GM then Hoyer. It's to assume that every team that was calling in on Kimbrel were offering better players than Madrigal/Heuer and Hoyer refused. It's to assume that other teams aren't eying 2019-2020 Kimbrel with suspicion. And it's undervaluing Madrigal--and Heuer for that matter.

 

It really disturbs me to see you engage in this glorification of Rick Hahn, Butch.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
 

First off, fuck Rick Hahn.

 

What, because Hoyer is smart it isn't possible that he got fleeced? Theo, who is widely accepted as one of the greatest GMs of all time, got absolutely humiliated in the Quintana trade. It happens even to the best GMs. Maybe Hoyer didn't have the bandwidth to execute all of these trades properly as the clock was ticking. Maybe he's overvaluing contact hitting as a skill because the offense as a whole has been very strikeout-prone the last few years (bringing Sogard to the roster this season might speak to that, too). Maybe he accepted a lesser offer because Madrigal is his goddamned nephew. You're right -- I don't know all of the details. I don't have any insider knowledge about what other teams were offering or if they were nervous about Kimbrel not being entirely "fixed" or anything else. But given that Kimbrel was our biggest trade chip in this situation, I firmly believe he could have and should have gotten more.

 

And now I'm seeing this quote from Hoyer that the Core weren't willing to negotiate and that the Cubs actually made them all very good offers. I don't buy that for a fucking second. This feels like corporate damage control and it makes me want to take a shower. I'm beginning to think Hoyer isn't the golden boy that we all assumed he was as Theo's protege.

 

</div>
</blockquote>
I am in the middle here, I don't think Madrigal is as bad as you think he is..but I do agree in that I feel like we could have gotten a bit better for Kimbrel.  Who knows, sounds like Glasnow was on the table from the Rays?  Maybe a better deal just wasn't there.  Overall I think Jed did really well with his trades.

[funkster]

FWIW, for all the bitching and moaning about signing KB or not, I don't think he was ever coming back.  Seems pretty clear from his comments that he was always intent on getting back to California.

[rok]

Message from Ricketts to STH



Building the Next Great Cubs Team



Dear Dumb Ass Cub fans who weve been fleeced, (add some poetic license there)



The past week has been extremely hard for everyone, especially our team and our fans. It's impossible to properly prepare for parting with players who personify what it means to be a Cub. While we believe the decisions we took were right for our organization, they were nonetheless difficult to make.



For nearly a decade, we've had the joy of watching Anthony Rizzo, Javy Báez and Kris Bryant set franchise records, win countless awards and become World Series champions and amazing ambassadors for our franchise and city. Their individual and collective contributions to our organization cannot be overstated. They are forever etched in Cubs history and the hearts of our fans.



Keeping our core together as long as we did helped create one of the most successful eras of Cubs baseball. It wasn't without a price, as we traded several promising prospects from 2016-20 in our quest to win another World Series. Over the past few weeks, it became clear it was time to make decisions focused on our future not our past; however, we do not regret pouring everything we had into keeping this championship window open as long as possible.



As David Ross said, the greatest legacy of Anthony, Javy and Kris is they were part of a team that raised expectations. Cubs fans are no longer content with merely making the playoffs. As we reset our team, please know we share your higher expectations. With five postseason appearances in the last six years, including reaching the NLCS three times and our historic World Series championship, sustainable on-field success is the new standard.



We're focused on replenishing our farm system and reloading our roster to build our next great Cubs team. The recent addition of several young, high-ceiling players, a highly effective player development system and additional financial resources underpin our position of strength.



Your support is critical to our success, and I want to thank you for your incredible loyalty now and through the years. During a season without fans due to COVID-19, you remained committed to our team, and you helped bring life and magic back to the Friendly Confines this year. You were extremely patient as we worked to build a championship roster and restore Wrigley Field. You believed in our plan to win and trusted us to deliver on our commitment to play championship baseball in the greatest ballpark in America. We did, and I assure you, we will do it again soon.



We understand it might take a little time to process these changes as we integrate new players into our already talented roster. If the past tells us anything, watching a remarkable team come together is extremely exciting and rewarding, especially when everyone is aligned on the goal of winning the World Series. Highly anticipated call-ups. Wrigley Field debuts. Immediate big-league impact. It's all part of what makes our game so special. We're grateful for the chance to share in that joy and journey together again.



Sincerely,

Tom

So how much will they hike ticket prices next year for the pleasure of witnessing all the excitement in person?

[1060Ivy]

May be a good time to drop tickets and put yourself in season ticket wait list