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<!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
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yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
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Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
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yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
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But now Fuk is playing better without Lou, so it appears to be a zero sum game.
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I am happy to see him with two ok performances back to back, but last night he threw too many pitches early which lead to an early exit. And let's not forget, he just pitched againist the Nationals and Pirates, two teams that are as bad or worse than the Cubs. I know, baby steps. If he continues to pitch well, it's a win-win so that is what I am hoping for...either he gets back what he has lost and is in line to be a big factor for the team next year, or his trade value actually has value and Hendry can pull some voodoo and get a good exchange for him.
Dylan McKay is my hero
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<!--quoteo(post=112941:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, <b>with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z</b>. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
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yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
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Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
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Beats kinda has a point. Maybe you didn't intend it that way, but that's how it reads.
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I know BT was half joking about Colvin, but I actually looked at the numbers (not that I'm reading anything into who is/was managing) and Colvin has been good lately, and he's been fairly productive since mid-August, so maybe he is better off in a platoon role.
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<!--quoteo(post=112941:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
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yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
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Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
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I just find it amazing how reluctant people are (not just you, not just about Zambrano) to pin the blame for poor play on the actual player. Aram has sucked this year. Not because Hendry gave him a big contract. Not because Lou batted him 3rd or 4th. Because he didn't play well. I blame ARam.
Zambrano has been up and down this year (although I think Ace makes some good points about his "ups"). I don't blame Hendry. I don't blame Lou. I blame Zambrano. now that he is doing better, I don't credit Quade. I don't credit Hendry. I credit Zambrano.
So I'm not overly concerned with who the manager and GM is next year, if we are discussing how well or poorly Zambrano will do. I'm concerned with Zambrano. It's up to him.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=112948:date=Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 10:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112941:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112940:date=Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112927:date=Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 31 2010, 08:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=112924:date=Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Aug 31 2010, 07:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I love me some Z. It may not be pretty, but it's the results that count.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's exactly right. Maybe next year, with a good manager and possibly a good GM, we'll see the old Z. Or at the very least, maybe he'll be given more than 4 games to pitch out of whatever problems he may have.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but now Colvin isn't playing well. And since we've determined that player performance is clearly based on who the manager is, does that mean we have to bring Lou back so Colvin will be better? But then what happens to Zambrano?
It's all so complicated.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that really what you took out of that? That Zambrano sucked because Lou was the manager? Really?
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I just find it amazing how reluctant people are (not just you, not just about Zambrano) to pin the blame for poor play on the actual player. Aram has sucked this year. Not because Hendry gave him a big contract. Not because Lou batted him 3rd or 4th. Because he didn't play well. I blame ARam.
Zambrano has been up and down this year (although I think Ace makes some good points about his "ups"). I don't blame Hendry. I don't blame Lou. I blame Zambrano. now that he is doing better, I don't credit Quade. I don't credit Hendry. I credit Zambrano.
So I'm not overly concerned with who the manager and GM is next year, if we are discussing how well or poorly Zambrano will do. I'm concerned with Zambrano. It's up to him.
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I agree with you about Aramis but I think the Zambrano situation is more complicated. I don't think the way he was handled is completely disconnected from what occurred.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I agree with you about Aramis but I think the Zambrano situation is more complicated. I don't think the way he was handled is completely disconnected from what occurred.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but what would your view be if he STILL wasn't pitching well? Would that signify that it was still Lou/Hendry's fault for moving him? If so, what possible outcome could have occurred that would have convinced you that it's on Zambrano, not his handlers?
I ask because the more I look at his numbers, the more I remain unconvinced Zambrano is "back". The only numbers which support that are ERA and Wins, and I don't like either of those as indicators of how well a guy is pitching. His K/BB ratio is terrible, his BB/IP is terrible, his velocity hasn't looked very good, and his pitch counts are pretty high.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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I'm not convinced that he is back either, but I have always contended that while Z may not be an ace any longer, he is still valuable in the rotation, even in the back end. I got sort of tired of people (not you in particular BT, but plenty of others) saying Z is worthless just because he didn't live up to his contract or didn't meet or exceed people's expectations as a #1. He still has value, and should have been given more time to work things out.
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<!--quoteo(post=112955:date=Aug 31 2010, 10:51 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Aug 31 2010, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I'm not convinced that he is back either, but I have always contended that while Z may not be an ace any longer, he is still valuable in the rotation, even in the back end. I got sort of tired of people (not you in particular BT, but plenty of others) saying Z is worthless just because he didn't live up to his contract or didn't meet or exceed people's expectations as a #1. He still has value, and should have been given more time to work things out.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly don't care about his contract. Once he signs it, all I care about is results. If he pitches well, he should be in the rotation. If he doesn't, he shouldn't. That should be all that matters.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=112953:date=Aug 31 2010, 10:47 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 31 2010, 10:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->I agree with you about Aramis but I think the Zambrano situation is more complicated. I don't think the way he was handled is completely disconnected from what occurred.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fair enough, but what would your view be if he STILL wasn't pitching well? Would that signify that it was still Lou/Hendry's fault for moving him? If so, what possible outcome could have occurred that would have convinced you that it's on Zambrano, not his handlers?
I ask because the more I look at his numbers, the more I remain unconvinced Zambrano is "back". The only numbers which support that are ERA and Wins, and I don't like either of those as indicators of how well a guy is pitching. His K/BB ratio is terrible, his BB/IP is terrible, his velocity hasn't looked very good, and his pitch counts are pretty high.
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I can't rule out the possibility that he's still recovering from the roller coaster ride. Can you? Do you agree that he's not been awful since his return to the rotation and that it could have been much, much worse? I think it's good news that he's back to a reasonable 3-5 SP and has behaved himself. He's not garbage that HAS to be dumped this winter and I think that's a pleasant surprise.
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I will say this to the point of his behavior-his overall attitude seems to be much improved since his return. Even before he went back into the rotation. Which is great to see. The guy is showing he can still be a somewhat effective pitcher so no, he isn't garbage that just has to be dumped and that is a very good feeling.
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Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. One point to make: no one (to my knowledge) has ever even suggested that the reason Aramis was sucking had anything to do with where he was batting. He was sucking because he was sucking/hurt. What people - including me - said about his spot in the order was that it was a grand mistake by Lou to keep hitting Aramis 3/4 when he was clearly sucking.
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<!--quoteo(post=112969:date=Aug 31 2010, 11:35 AM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Aug 31 2010, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. One point to make: no one (to my knowledge) has ever even suggested that the reason Aramis was sucking had anything to do with where he was batting. He was sucking because he was sucking/hurt. What people - including me - said about his spot in the order was that it was a grand mistake by Lou to keep hitting Aramis 3/4 when he was clearly sucking.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or to do you one better...he was sucking because he was allowed to play <i>at all</i>, despite having a thumb injury. And that is CLEARLY on Lou and Jim, and let the insults rain down, I don't care, because Jim has an 8-year history of playing down injuries.
I can see where a thumb injury would make it difficult to handle a baseball bat, but I'm sure I'll be told otherwise.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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To give a more balanced portrait, I will mention this: while even a non-conspiracy person can <b>easily</b> find blame in the handling of both Z and Aramis this year, IMO, Jim and Lou deserve no blame for either DLee's atrocious play, or Aramis's contract.
Lee probably just got old fast...that's what happens to guys his age, but it's not reasonable, based on his hitting last season, to assume he'd fall off the cliff in 2010. And Aramis's deal was a steal for Jim and the Cubs...Aram left money on the table that he could have got from a number of other teams (especially the Angels).
So you can't blame the Cubs for the big contract...they have big revenue.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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