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<!--quoteo(post=24857:date=Mar 25 2009, 09:41 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 25 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24831:date=Mar 25 2009, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->again, i agree with kb. to me he's a first ballot hall of famer.
(don drysdale, on the other hand, should not be in the hall of fame)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Schilling is a first ballot HOFer, but Koufax doesn't belong? C'mon, dude.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
butch, did you read my reasoning? koufax may be the greatest pitcher of all time, BUT HE DID IT FOR 4 YEARS. i never said he sucked. i never said he was a bad pitcher. to me, unless you die at a young age or have some kind of disease, longevity counts. he just didn't do it for long enough. plus, he quit in his prime, because he just didn't like baseball.
i understand my stance is an umpopular one thats fine. i don't lose sleep because koufax is in the hall of fame, but at least understand why i feel they way i do.
schilling - in
koufax - out
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=24862:date=Mar 25 2009, 10:15 AM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Mar 25 2009, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Surely championships and postseason performance has to count for something though doesn't it? I mean winning championships is the ultimate goal for any athlete. Obviously baseball is a team game and you can't put stuff like that as a top criteria. Guys like Maddux and Pedro are getting in no matter what. But I have no problem with postseason performance and championships being used as a factor for a borderline guy.
I can agree that the term "gamer" and the bloody sock stuff is all bullshit. But especially as Chicago sports fans, watching Jordan for years and watching the Cubs blow every opportunity in our lives, I have to believe there are certain special players who for whatever reason really shine when it counts most and bloody socks aside, in big games, Schilling kicked ass.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
andy pettite is a great post season pitcher, but he ain't sniffing the hall of fame.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=24885:date=Mar 25 2009, 12:40 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24857:date=Mar 25 2009, 09:41 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 25 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24831:date=Mar 25 2009, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->again, i agree with kb. to me he's a first ballot hall of famer.
(don drysdale, on the other hand, should not be in the hall of fame)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Schilling is a first ballot HOFer, but Koufax doesn't belong? C'mon, dude.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
butch, did you read my reasoning? koufax may be the greatest pitcher of all time, BUT HE DID IT FOR 4 YEARS. i never said he sucked. i never said he was a bad pitcher. to me, unless you die at a young age or have some kind of disease, longevity counts. he just didn't do it for long enough. plus, he quit in his prime, because he just didn't like baseball.
i understand my stance is an umpopular one thats fine. i don't lose sleep because koufax is in the hall of fame, but at least understand why i feel they way i do.
schilling - in
koufax - out
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get your reasoning, tom. I don't agree with it, but I understand where you're coming from.
People like you are the reason Biggio will get in to the HOF, but Santo won't.
But that's OK. We can still be friends.
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<!--quoteo(post=24892:date=Mar 25 2009, 12:45 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 25 2009, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24885:date=Mar 25 2009, 12:40 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24857:date=Mar 25 2009, 09:41 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 25 2009, 09:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24831:date=Mar 25 2009, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->again, i agree with kb. to me he's a first ballot hall of famer.
(don drysdale, on the other hand, should not be in the hall of fame)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Schilling is a first ballot HOFer, but Koufax doesn't belong? C'mon, dude.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
butch, did you read my reasoning? koufax may be the greatest pitcher of all time, BUT HE DID IT FOR 4 YEARS. i never said he sucked. i never said he was a bad pitcher. to me, unless you die at a young age or have some kind of disease, longevity counts. he just didn't do it for long enough. plus, he quit in his prime, because he just didn't like baseball.
i understand my stance is an umpopular one thats fine. i don't lose sleep because koufax is in the hall of fame, but at least understand why i feel they way i do.
schilling - in
koufax - out
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get your reasoning, tom. I don't agree with it, but I understand where you're coming from.
People like you are the reason Biggio will get in to the HOF, but Santo won't.
But that's OK. We can still be friends.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
biggio deserves to be in......
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=24889:date=Mar 25 2009, 01:42 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->andy pettite is a great post season pitcher, but he ain't sniffing the hall of fame.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he doesn't, it'll be the HGH that keeps him out. I guarantee that if Pettite wins 250 games, he's in, HGH or no.
One dick can poke an eye out. A hundred dicks can move mountains.
--Veryzer
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<!--quoteo(post=24907:date=Mar 25 2009, 01:19 PM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Mar 25 2009, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24889:date=Mar 25 2009, 01:42 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 25 2009, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->andy pettite is a great post season pitcher, but he ain't sniffing the hall of fame.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he doesn't, it'll be the HGH that keeps him out. I guarantee that if Pettite wins 250 games, he's in, HGH or no.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i just looked at the stats and i admit that i didn't realize how similar their lifetime stats are. there was a time when shilling was dominant, but i don't think pettite was ever a dominating pitcher, except maybe in the post season. i'll stand by schilling and grudgingly include pettite. but if pettite tanks the next couple years, hes gonna hurt his chances. no one with an era over 4.00 should be in and pettite is close.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=24867:date=Mar 25 2009, 09:40 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)-->QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Mar 25 2009, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24862:date=Mar 25 2009, 11:15 AM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Mar 25 2009, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->But I have no problem with postseason performance and championships being used as a factor for a borderline guy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I buy this okay. So, how much better would Kevin Brown's post-season stats (6-2, 4.19, 71K/31BB) need to be to get him in the Hall? Would he need to have gotten the win in a game 7?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying there should be a specific cutoff point or that a voter should sit and say "hmmm, Brown had two game 6 wins and a 4.19 ERA, too bad.... if he had a 3.4 ERA and game 7 wins then he is in!"
I'm just saying if a guy is borderline and a voter is trying to decide, I think the fact that Schilling won 3 rings and had amazing postseason numbers should be a factor.
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I don't think you can dismiss Schilling's post season career as small sample size or the luck of being on a good team.
19 starts: 13 of them allowing 1 or fewer runs, 3 games allowing 2 runs. In five of the games he did not win, he gave up a total of 5 runs (3 blown saves).
This is far above Kevin Brown, or any other recent pitcher. Pettite is 14-9 with an ERA almost 4.
Schilling pitched a great game virtually every start.
I like you guys a lot.
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<!--quoteo(post=24930:date=Mar 25 2009, 01:06 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Mar 25 2009, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24867:date=Mar 25 2009, 09:40 AM:name=VanSlawAndCottoCheese)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Mar 25 2009, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=24862:date=Mar 25 2009, 11:15 AM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Mar 25 2009, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->But I have no problem with postseason performance and championships being used as a factor for a borderline guy.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I buy this okay. So, how much better would Kevin Brown's post-season stats (6-2, 4.19, 71K/31BB) need to be to get him in the Hall? Would he need to have gotten the win in a game 7?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying there should be a specific cutoff point or that a voter should sit and say "hmmm, Brown had two game 6 wins and a 4.19 ERA, too bad.... if he had a 3.4 ERA and game 7 wins then he is in!"
I'm just saying if a guy is borderline and a voter is trying to decide, I think the fact that Schilling won 3 rings and had amazing postseason numbers should be a factor.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely.
@TheBlogfines
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