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<!--quoteo(post=77883:date=Jan 28 2010, 12:06 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jan 28 2010, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77880:date=Jan 28 2010, 01:02 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 28 2010, 01:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77873:date=Jan 28 2010, 11:41 AM:name=Runnys)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runnys @ Jan 28 2010, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77870:date=Jan 28 2010, 10:24 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jan 28 2010, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77869:date=Jan 28 2010, 11:21 AM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 28 2010, 11:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I wonder if it's inevitable that one of them will be moved to 2B. Or traded.
It's nice to have an embarrassment of riches at the SS position, down on the farm.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be a waste because both of them are well thought of as shortstops. Both have great range and strong arms. I have heard speculation that Lee could move to center field, but if they both turn into stud shortstops, I think you HAVE to trade one. The value of a young shortstop that is able to field and hit the ball can bring back too much not to deal him.
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If they are both studs why would it be a waste to move on of them to 2nd? I don't understand the reasoning. They would be cheap options that would theoretically play great defense up the middle. If these guys end up being as good as some think they could be top of the order hitters for years. The money we save paying them cheaply could give us payroll flexibility to go after key FA's in the years to come.
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My guess is, in theory, that a stud shortstop could net you a stud 2B *and* a stud (some other position that isn't catcher or SP). And if we have a stud shortstop already, then we'd be better off trading the extra one instead of weakening his value by moving him to a less skilled position.
In theory.
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Exactly. Good 2nd basemen aren't as hard to find as good shortstops. People kill for good defensive shortstops that can hit.
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Really? How many good 2B are there in baseball right now? Right now it seems that 2B is just about the thinnest position in baseball.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Really? How many good 2B are there in baseball right now? Right now it seems that 2B is just about the thinnest position in baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That may be true, but that doesn't mean you move a good shortstop to second to fill that hole. I promise you that any team with a hole at 2b could fill it by moving their shortstop there. But then you have a much bigger hole to fill at SS. The opposite is not true.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=77847:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:16 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jan 28 2010, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77840:date=Jan 28 2010, 07:37 AM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 28 2010, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77823:date=Jan 27 2010, 10:11 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jan 27 2010, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77821:date=Jan 27 2010, 11:06 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 27 2010, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=77765:date=Jan 27 2010, 05:13 PM:name=Ace)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ace @ Jan 27 2010, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Not to be the guy crapping on Castro again (though I'm actually on board with the others who've said they think he's a great prospect, but the hype has gone off the rails), but I'm not even sure he's the best SS prospect in the <i>Cubs' system</i>, let alone baseball.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was wondering about that. Does anyone know in what way Castro is better than Lee?
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Castro makes better contact than Lee does, although Lee is no scrub getting the bat on the ball. I believe Castro's defense all around is also better but only by a hair. Lee is gonna have to make some noise at higher levels before he gets into the best shortstop in the minors category.
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Castro is more advanced and plays better defense, no doubt. Lee is thought to be a better athlete, though, and is the fastest kid in the system. He is also expected to hit for a higher average than Castro.
No, I wouldn't put Lee ahead of Castro - just to be clear - but it's certainly a fair discussion, no?
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I'm not sure where you've heard that Lee will hit for a higher average. Yes, he will leg out more infield singles than Castro, but Castro's biggest asset is his batting average where as Lee tends to strike out much more and will take a walk to hold his OBP up. I'm not saying you're wrong and I understand Lee hit .330 in his debut at Boise last year, just that I've heard otherwise.
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For a second I thought I dreamed it, but here's where I got it from: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prosp...010/269148.html
Best hitter for average is Lee, and that's out of the entire system. And I don't believe those are based just on the players' performances from the 2009 season, but I could be wrong.
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KLaw just published his top 10 that didn't make the top 100. Brett Jackson was on the list. Here is what he had to say:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Brett Jackson, CF, Chicago Cubs: Struggled to make contact with aluminum all spring, then got into pro ball and didn't have the same problem. Hard to say which is the real Brett Jackson until he goes around a league twice, but he could turn into a great pick for the Cubs -- a win for drafting tools over performance.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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And here's his Top 10 Cubs prospects:
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->1. Starlin Castro, SS
2. Josh Vitters, 3B
3. Jay Jackson, RHP
4. Andrew Cashner, RHP
5. Brett Jackson, OF
6. Lee Hak-Ju, SS
7. Kyler Burke, OF
8. Chris Carpenter, RHP
9. Ryan Flaherty, IF
10. Brooks Raley, LHP<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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How far along is Cashner? I remember when we drafted him, some people were making off the wall predictions that he could be called up after one MiL season. And one would assume that he is bound for the pen, not the rotation, correct?
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<!--quoteo(post=77961:date=Jan 29 2010, 09:40 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jan 29 2010, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->How far along is Cashner? I remember when we drafted him, some people were making off the wall predictions that he could be called up after one MiL season. And one would assume that he is bound for the pen, not the rotation, correct?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's starting right now, and the Cubs are hopeful he'll be a top of the rotation starter. If they would have had him in the bullpen, I think he would have been up already. A lot of people are predicting that he'll ultimately end up as a reliever, but if he can pitch effectively as a starter, even better. They've had him working on a changeup and if he can throw it somewhat effectively, I think he'll do well starting because his fastball and slider are that good. From what I know, while he was at TCU his endurance was never a concern. They just happened to have other starting pitchers in place to start when he arrived and he never had a shot at starting since he was one and done in college.
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<!--quoteo(post=77961:date=Jan 29 2010, 09:40 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jan 29 2010, 09:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->How far along is Cashner? I remember when we drafted him, some people were making off the wall predictions that he could be called up after one MiL season. And one would assume that he is bound for the pen, not the rotation, correct?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
KLaw rated Cashner as the 79th best prospect in all of baseball. here's his take on him.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Cashner closed at TCU -- which has really improved its baseball profile in the past few years (including landing the top unsigned player from the 2009 draft, lefty Matt Purke) -- but has worked as a starter in the Cubs' system. It's a big arm, with a fastball at 93-98 mph even over multiple innings and a hard slider with very good tilt in the mid-80s, with his slider command ahead of his fastball command when I saw him. He has a changeup but rarely uses it; it has some tail but mostly just glove-side run. He gets ground balls but it's not extreme, and I don't think his home run rate from 2009 indicates some preternatural ability to keep the ball in the park. What's odd about Cashner is that for a guy with a power arm, he doesn't miss a lot of bats, and neither his control nor his ground-ball rate is high enough for him to be a good starter with a low strikeout rate. If he has to return to the pen, he'll be dominant there, but the Cubs will probably let him continue to start and see if he can improve his command and find a way to miss more bats.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
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Sounds a little like Shark, but obviously with better stuff. Interesting.
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It's interesting that most evaluators rate Jay Jackson as superior to Cashner, yet we never hear much about him. He's kind of flown under the radar, but he projects well.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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Vitters came in at a high # 30. Apparently he just smokes the hell out of the ball, but has zero patience. (sigh)
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=78079:date=Jan 30 2010, 02:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 30 2010, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Vitters came in at a high # 30. Apparently he just smokes the hell out of the ball, but has zero patience. (sigh)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nomar had no patience. So did Vlad. Not saying he'll be anywhere close to them ever...just sayin. Would you (sigh) at their production? Not enough walks and too many meaningless hits for you I presume.
Think about it like this: if both of those players hit .280 (which is still pretty good) instead of their +.310 career numbers their OBP is around league average (yes I know that is basic isolated OBP.) Just because a player's OBP is inflated by batting average doesn't denigrate their ability to get on base. Getting on base is getting on base. I think the difference lies in what one enjoys watching. I like to see players get hits. I think that is exciting. I <i>do</i> enjoy watching a player work a 6 or 7 pitch at bat for a walk, however. But overall I much would much more enjoy watching a player get a hit.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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Cashner was on a very limiting pitch count last year, so it will be interesting to see how he holds up as a starter when turned loose.
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<!--quoteo(post=78082:date=Jan 30 2010, 02:47 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jan 30 2010, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=78079:date=Jan 30 2010, 02:03 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 30 2010, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Vitters came in at a high # 30. Apparently he just smokes the hell out of the ball, but has zero patience. (sigh)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Getting on base is getting on base. I think the difference lies in what one enjoys watching. I like to see players get hits. I think that is exciting. I <i>do</i> enjoy watching a player work a 6 or 7 pitch at bat for a walk, however. But overall I much would much more enjoy watching a player get a hit.
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Beez, What I personally enjoy watching, and what helps builds a winning team, are 2 totally different things. I <i>love</i> watching all the things that are bad for "percentage baseball:" lots of bunts, fat guys trying to steal bases, complete games by dog-tired pitchers, all-or-nothing sluggers who either blast a 450-foot home run or twist themselves into a corkscrew by striking out...that shit is my <i>favorite stuff</i>.
However, at this point, I'd forego enjoying these circus-like pleasures for the far greater pleasure of the Cubs actually winning something.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=78088:date=Jan 30 2010, 03:48 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 30 2010, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=78082:date=Jan 30 2010, 02:47 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jan 30 2010, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=78079:date=Jan 30 2010, 02:03 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Jan 30 2010, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Vitters came in at a high # 30. Apparently he just smokes the hell out of the ball, but has zero patience. (sigh)<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->Getting on base is getting on base. I think the difference lies in what one enjoys watching. I like to see players get hits. I think that is exciting. I <i>do</i> enjoy watching a player work a 6 or 7 pitch at bat for a walk, however. But overall I much would much more enjoy watching a player get a hit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Beez, What I personally enjoy watching, and what helps builds a winning team, are 2 totally different things. I <i>love</i> watching all the things that are bad for "percentage baseball:" lots of bunts, fat guys trying to steal bases, complete games by dog-tired pitchers, all-or-nothing sluggers who either blast a 450-foot home run or twist themselves into a corkscrew by striking out...that shit is my <i>favorite stuff</i>.
However, at this point, I'd forego enjoying these circus-like pleasures for the far greater pleasure of the Cubs actually winning something.
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Would you object to having a guy who has a high OBP based on batting average? Is a player with a .280/.380 line more or less valuable than a player with a .330/380 line?
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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