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<!--quoteo(post=94704:date=May 4 2010, 03:37 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. If a guy is committing an egregious felony shoot him. If it's a misdemeanor, tase him.
Admittedly, it's unpleasant to see it put that way. But isn't that how law and order works?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not what Rapp is arguing. And no, of course that's not how law and order works. Breaking the law does not mean you have given up ALL of your rights, and it certainly does not mean an officer of the law gets to decide how to stop you.
I haven't the foggiest idea if tasing is a reasonable response to chasing down a drunk, but one mans tasing could be another mans baton to the head. Or a kick in the nuts.
The police have procedures in place for this kind of thing. Cops don't get to decide on their own how far they are going to take it, and a simple act of trespassing certainly doesn't mean you get "no say" in what the cops do to you. From what I've read, the use of a taser in this instance seems to really be a stretch for Philadelphia police procedure. They are supposed to use taser in order to subdue someone "fleeing", but it's pretty obvious this guy was going nowhere.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=94711:date=May 4 2010, 03:46 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94708:date=May 4 2010, 03:40 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 4 2010, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94704:date=May 4 2010, 03:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. If a guy is committing an egregious felony shoot him. If it's a misdemeanor, tase him.
Admittedly, it's unpleasant to see it put that way. But isn't that how law and order works?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The system is just so much more efficient when enforcement and corrections are combined.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think it'd take a seated jury to discover evidence that this guy ran out onto the field?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, nor do I think it would take a judge to determine an appropriate sentence. It should be sufficient for the gladiators to appeal to the crowd.
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<!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do...and it has limits. But...if I'm the on the jury (knowing only what I'm seeing right now), the taser stands up.
A gun does not. A beating does not.
A taser to subdue recklessness does...
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Even if we forget the concept of "deterrence;" doesn't law enforcement need to be taken seriously for society to function?
It's like the joke about London bobbies: "Stop! Or I'll shoo...er......uh...or I'll holler "Stop" again!"
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=94721:date=May 4 2010, 03:54 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even if we forget the concept of "deterrence;" doesn't law enforcement need to be taken seriously for society to function.
It's like the joke about London bobbies: "Stop! Or I'll shoo...er......uh...or I'll holler "Stop" again!"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course law enforcement has to be taken seriously, but again, are you going to leave it up to each individual officer to determine what establishes "credibility"? How should our border patrol act in order to be taken seriously? I'm betting Rush Limbaugh and Tom Tancredo have a much different idea as to what needs to be done than Luis Gutierrez or other Hispanic lawmakers.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=94717:date=May 4 2010, 03:49 PM:name=Rappster)-->QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do...and it has limits. But...if I'm the on the jury (knowing only what I'm seeing right now), the taser stands up.
A gun does not. A beating does not.
A taser to subdue recklessness does...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But your argument in this case only applies to the Philles kid. The premise of your first statement is that the individual merits of the case don't matter, the simple act of breaking the law is enough for the lawbreaker to lose any protections the law gives him.
I might agree with you that a taser was needed in this case, but I completely disagree that he lost all say in the matter simply by stepping on the field. Those are 2 separate arguments.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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<!--quoteo(post=94728:date=May 4 2010, 03:59 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94721:date=May 4 2010, 03:54 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even if we forget the concept of "deterrence;" doesn't law enforcement need to be taken seriously for society to function.
It's like the joke about London bobbies: "Stop! Or I'll shoo...er......uh...or I'll holler "Stop" again!"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course law enforcement has to be taken seriously, but again, are you going to leave it up to each individual officer to determine what establishes "credibility"? How should our border patrol act in order to be taken seriously? I'm betting Rush Limbaugh and Tom Tancredo have a much different idea as to what needs to be done than Luis Gutierrez or other Hispanic lawmakers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll agree with that.
But doesn't the very fact that the cop was <i>carrying</i> a taser gun seem to indicate that it had been deemed by higher-ups as a satisfactory stopping device for this activity?
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=94732:date=May 4 2010, 04:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94728:date=May 4 2010, 03:59 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94721:date=May 4 2010, 03:54 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even if we forget the concept of "deterrence;" doesn't law enforcement need to be taken seriously for society to function.
It's like the joke about London bobbies: "Stop! Or I'll shoo...er......uh...or I'll holler "Stop" again!"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course law enforcement has to be taken seriously, but again, are you going to leave it up to each individual officer to determine what establishes "credibility"? How should our border patrol act in order to be taken seriously? I'm betting Rush Limbaugh and Tom Tancredo have a much different idea as to what needs to be done than Luis Gutierrez or other Hispanic lawmakers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll agree with that.
But doesn't the very fact that the cop was <i>carrying</i> a taser gun seem to indicate that it had been deemed by higher-ups as a satisfactory stopping device for this activity?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would assume security has MANY other responsibilities, besides chasing down fans on the field.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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You know, one reason that they might give cops tasers to deal with fans running onto the field may stem from the very real fact that some of them are NOT harmless drunks. Players have been threatened, and the Meth Lab's Gamboa incident should be a serious warning that not all of these dickheads are sweet-natured idiots.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=94731:date=May 4 2010, 04:01 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94717:date=May 4 2010, 03:49 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 03:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do...and it has limits. But...if I'm the on the jury (knowing only what I'm seeing right now), the taser stands up.
A gun does not. A beating does not.
A taser to subdue recklessness does...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But your argument in this case only applies to the Philles kid. The premise of your first statement is that the individual merits of the case don't matter, the simple act of breaking the law is enough for the lawbreaker to lose any protections the law gives him.
I might agree with you that a taser was needed in this case, but I completely disagree that he lost all say in the matter simply by stepping on the field. Those are 2 separate arguments.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know...but, I've always viewed the law as being dependent on the good judgment of those involved. When a cop dispenses justice...he is also held accountable, but I still think common sense needs to apply.
When that kid ran on the field...he put himself at the mercy of the authorities...at the mercy of their good judgment. I think the taser was within bounds. That was my point.
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<!--quoteo(post=94732:date=May 4 2010, 04:03 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94728:date=May 4 2010, 03:59 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94721:date=May 4 2010, 03:54 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Even if we forget the concept of "deterrence;" doesn't law enforcement need to be taken seriously for society to function.
It's like the joke about London bobbies: "Stop! Or I'll shoo...er......uh...or I'll holler "Stop" again!"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course law enforcement has to be taken seriously, but again, are you going to leave it up to each individual officer to determine what establishes "credibility"? How should our border patrol act in order to be taken seriously? I'm betting Rush Limbaugh and Tom Tancredo have a much different idea as to what needs to be done than Luis Gutierrez or other Hispanic lawmakers.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OK, I'll agree with that.
But doesn't the very fact that the cop was <i>carrying</i> a taser gun seem to indicate that it had been deemed by higher-ups as a satisfactory stopping device for this activity?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
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<!--quoteo(post=94714:date=May 4 2010, 03:48 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ May 4 2010, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94711:date=May 4 2010, 03:46 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94708:date=May 4 2010, 03:40 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 4 2010, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94704:date=May 4 2010, 03:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. If a guy is committing an egregious felony shoot him. If it's a misdemeanor, tase him.
Admittedly, it's unpleasant to see it put that way. But isn't that how law and order works?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The system is just so much more efficient when enforcement and corrections are combined.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think it'd take a seated jury to discover evidence that this guy ran out onto the field?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, nor do I think it would take a judge to determine an appropriate sentence. It should be sufficient for the gladiators to appeal to the crowd.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Somewhere in that sea of sarcasm is a point... and I'm not quite getting it.
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<!--quoteo(post=94741:date=May 4 2010, 04:19 PM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ May 4 2010, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94714:date=May 4 2010, 03:48 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 4 2010, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94711:date=May 4 2010, 03:46 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94708:date=May 4 2010, 03:40 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 4 2010, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94704:date=May 4 2010, 03:37 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 4 2010, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94702:date=May 4 2010, 03:34 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 4 2010, 03:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=94642:date=May 4 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ May 4 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The moment he decided to run on the field...he lost the argument. He gets no say in what a policeman decides to do to stop him...
Taze him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You realize the ramifications of this argument, right?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes. If a guy is committing an egregious felony shoot him. If it's a misdemeanor, tase him.
Admittedly, it's unpleasant to see it put that way. But isn't that how law and order works?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The system is just so much more efficient when enforcement and corrections are combined.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You think it'd take a seated jury to discover evidence that this guy ran out onto the field?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, nor do I think it would take a judge to determine an appropriate sentence. It should be sufficient for the gladiators to appeal to the crowd.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Somewhere in that sea of sarcasm is a point... and I'm not quite getting it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lost in any argument about whether or not the kid got what he deserved is the fact that getting what one deserves is a matter for the courts, not the police. There is a line between enforcement and justice and cops aren't privileged to deliver justice.
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Wow, you guys can take the smallest argument and dissect it and beat it to death.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=94742:date=May 4 2010, 04:24 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ May 4 2010, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lost in any argument about whether or not the kid got what he deserved is the fact that getting what one deserves is a matter for the courts, not the police. There is a line between enforcement and justice and cops aren't privileged to deliver justice.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a sound point, I suppose.
You know what I think is coloring the response of many of us hard-liners?
Being baseball fans. As a baseball fan, the knee-jerk reaction of 99% of ball fans is abject <i>hatred</i> of the cocksucker disturbing the game. It's admittedly not rational. Statistically, the transgressor will be a harmless fellow. But the immediate visceral reaction is quiet rage...therefore, we applaud the notion of the dick getting more than the typical slap on the wrists.
Yeah, I suppose it's wrong. But it <i>feels</i> so right.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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