05-14-2010, 04:50 PM
<!--quoteo(post=96323:date=May 14 2010, 03:44 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ May 14 2010, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96316:date=May 14 2010, 03:31 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 14 2010, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96314:date=May 14 2010, 03:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ May 14 2010, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96305:date=May 14 2010, 03:19 PM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ May 14 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96303:date=May 14 2010, 03:13 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 14 2010, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96302:date=May 14 2010, 03:11 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ May 14 2010, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96300:date=May 14 2010, 03:08 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 14 2010, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The argument (devil's advocacy) for Z over Sloth in the pen is that Lou didn't need a guy to kill innings in a blowout, he needed a guy that can get out of a jam and/or hold a lead for Marmol...and until Hendry can find that guy, Sloth isn't that guy and Z can be.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I get the theory behind it. It's just a faulty theory.
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And I agree with you. It's playing to not lose, rather than playing to win. Your best starters should start.
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It was also a high risk, low reward move. I would compare it to moving your best hitter to a PH role just to have him available when you need him late in games. Too bad you need him to bat as much as possible, not just to come in a few times a week in big situations. Just indefensible.
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I totally disagree. Again, not the move I would make, but it's completely defensible. Or to put it another way, it was as defensible as any other move they were faced with. If they move Silva or Gorz to the pen, <b>they are moving pitchers that were actually pitching better than Zambrano,</b> while at the same time doing nothing to help the Cubs in the 8th inning, as I can't imagine either guy in an 8th inning role.
Of course thinking like this means I'm pro-management. So there's that.
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This is the part that blows my mind. Yes -- they were pitching better than Zambrano at the time the decision was made. In how many starts? How can you move arguably our best starter to the pen because he had a few rough starts and Silva (the *worst* starting pitcher in baseball the last couple of years) and Gorz had a few good starts? How can you defend this move? Why can't you imagine Silva and/or Gorz in the 8th inning, but you can imagine Z there? Is there something magical about that particular inning? At this rate, Gorz and Silva will both pitch 3 times as many innings as Z. It makes no sense.
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wow, wee bit on the snarky side today Butch? You know, if I had written that, KB would be asking why I'm so hostile.
This shouldn't be that mind blowing. I can answer all of this fairly easily.
The fact that Silva and Gorz were pitching better than Zambrano was not THE reason they moved Zambrano to the pen. It was PART of the reason. And until today, it completely worked, as both of them have continued to pitch very effectively.
There is nothing "magical" about the 8th inning Butch. But most managers, if you polled them, would prefer a power right hander in that spot. Neither Silva nor Gorz fits that role. Zambrano fits it to a tee. There are lots and lots and lots of starting pitchers who are great, but who I wouldn't necessarily think would be ideal 8th inning relievers.
The Cubs left 2 effective starters, who (until today) have continued to pitch effectively, and put a power righty in the bulllpen. Yes, Zambrano's history suggests he will be better than those 2, and my guess is that when it happens, he will be back in the starting rotation. But just because his history says he's better, that doesn't mean he is. As ARam if you don't believe me.
It's not the best answer, I don't think, but for you guys to continue to act as if they put Koyie Hill in at closer, is ridiculous.
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Sorry, BT. I didn't mean to be snarky or hostile. I'm not going to keep beating this argument into the ground, as you (and everyone here) knows my opinion on the matter...
I get the theory behind it. It's just a faulty theory.
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And I agree with you. It's playing to not lose, rather than playing to win. Your best starters should start.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was also a high risk, low reward move. I would compare it to moving your best hitter to a PH role just to have him available when you need him late in games. Too bad you need him to bat as much as possible, not just to come in a few times a week in big situations. Just indefensible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I totally disagree. Again, not the move I would make, but it's completely defensible. Or to put it another way, it was as defensible as any other move they were faced with. If they move Silva or Gorz to the pen, <b>they are moving pitchers that were actually pitching better than Zambrano,</b> while at the same time doing nothing to help the Cubs in the 8th inning, as I can't imagine either guy in an 8th inning role.
Of course thinking like this means I'm pro-management. So there's that.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the part that blows my mind. Yes -- they were pitching better than Zambrano at the time the decision was made. In how many starts? How can you move arguably our best starter to the pen because he had a few rough starts and Silva (the *worst* starting pitcher in baseball the last couple of years) and Gorz had a few good starts? How can you defend this move? Why can't you imagine Silva and/or Gorz in the 8th inning, but you can imagine Z there? Is there something magical about that particular inning? At this rate, Gorz and Silva will both pitch 3 times as many innings as Z. It makes no sense.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
wow, wee bit on the snarky side today Butch? You know, if I had written that, KB would be asking why I'm so hostile.
This shouldn't be that mind blowing. I can answer all of this fairly easily.
The fact that Silva and Gorz were pitching better than Zambrano was not THE reason they moved Zambrano to the pen. It was PART of the reason. And until today, it completely worked, as both of them have continued to pitch very effectively.
There is nothing "magical" about the 8th inning Butch. But most managers, if you polled them, would prefer a power right hander in that spot. Neither Silva nor Gorz fits that role. Zambrano fits it to a tee. There are lots and lots and lots of starting pitchers who are great, but who I wouldn't necessarily think would be ideal 8th inning relievers.
The Cubs left 2 effective starters, who (until today) have continued to pitch effectively, and put a power righty in the bulllpen. Yes, Zambrano's history suggests he will be better than those 2, and my guess is that when it happens, he will be back in the starting rotation. But just because his history says he's better, that doesn't mean he is. As ARam if you don't believe me.
It's not the best answer, I don't think, but for you guys to continue to act as if they put Koyie Hill in at closer, is ridiculous.
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Sorry, BT. I didn't mean to be snarky or hostile. I'm not going to keep beating this argument into the ground, as you (and everyone here) knows my opinion on the matter...