08-21-2009, 10:44 AM
<!--quoteo(post=59224:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:09 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Aug 21 2009, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I think BT's point was that the shoes haven't been much different sizes the past few seasons. The Sox always love to act as though they are the penny-pinching stepchild of Chicago, but that really hasn't been the case in recent years. It's not as if KW is Billy Beane.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's definitely true - the gap is exaggerated by some.
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cherp, how does it matter the method in which guys are procured? Kenny Williams had a roster with a payroll higher than the Cubs for the last 2 years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't think there is a difference between KW taking on 3 years and about 50mm, but getting 25mm back in cash, and Hendry going out and spending the way he has, then we will agree to disagree BT. Think about the raw dollars of FA contracts and extensions that the two have spent. It really isn't close. Do you not think that Jim Hendry has had more money to spend in the past 5 years than KW?
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Saying that Thome shouldn't count as a 15 million dollar player, because KW was taking damaged goods is like me saying that the Cubs shouldn't have Soriano's full 18 million applied against him, because everyone knew he wasn't worth that much, but Hendry had to pay extra in order to get him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can think that if you desire - I think that's silly. I disagree that it is the same taking on a 50mm contract, and getting 25mm back in cash and going out on the FA market and spending $50mm. If you don't - that's of course your right.
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Furthermore, it's even bigger bullshit because regardless of whether or not Thome was somehow considered damaged goods when they got him, he's played up to his contract. Kenny is getting 15 million in value from him, regardless of what they are paying.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is a testament to a good decision. But the market value at the time, was different. Right? Assuming the Phils shopped him, and got the best possible deal they could, it was not full contract value - Thome was worth less. So Williams did well for himself. A deal that didn't blow up in his face. It easily could have.
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Regardless, the amount they were paying Thome and Vazquez barely changes the equation. The Sox were responsible for half of Thome's salary, and more than half of Vazquez's salary in 2007, and ALL of Vazquez's 2008 salary. That comes out to maybe 10 million in 2007 and 7 million in 2008. That's doesn't fundamentally change the fact that both teams had roughly the same payroll. Yet the media will continue to act as if <b>Hendry is Cashman and Williams is Beane.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Up until this year, Hendry had the ability to go out and sign a lot of guys to very big contracts. See my post above. Williams has only done that with two guys - Buehrle and Konerko. Everything else he did was getting guys willing to come on shorter term deals, for less money. I'm really surprised you think the playing field is tilted in Williams favor in this discussion.
Take the Cubs and Sox out of the equation. If you had a choice as a GM between having the ability to go to the FA market and spend about 300mm on 7 FA/retainees of your choice, or the ability to spend much less, on guys willing to take shorter deals, and having to take on other team's rejects and their salary, which would you choose?
I have always that i wish the Sox had the ability to spend money the way Hendry did - but not in the results he got for them. Past the Yanks and the Red Sox, how many teams have gone to FA and spent like the Cubs have? The White Sox have not done that.
That's definitely true - the gap is exaggerated by some.
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Cherp, how does it matter the method in which guys are procured? Kenny Williams had a roster with a payroll higher than the Cubs for the last 2 years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you don't think there is a difference between KW taking on 3 years and about 50mm, but getting 25mm back in cash, and Hendry going out and spending the way he has, then we will agree to disagree BT. Think about the raw dollars of FA contracts and extensions that the two have spent. It really isn't close. Do you not think that Jim Hendry has had more money to spend in the past 5 years than KW?
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Saying that Thome shouldn't count as a 15 million dollar player, because KW was taking damaged goods is like me saying that the Cubs shouldn't have Soriano's full 18 million applied against him, because everyone knew he wasn't worth that much, but Hendry had to pay extra in order to get him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can think that if you desire - I think that's silly. I disagree that it is the same taking on a 50mm contract, and getting 25mm back in cash and going out on the FA market and spending $50mm. If you don't - that's of course your right.
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Furthermore, it's even bigger bullshit because regardless of whether or not Thome was somehow considered damaged goods when they got him, he's played up to his contract. Kenny is getting 15 million in value from him, regardless of what they are paying.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is a testament to a good decision. But the market value at the time, was different. Right? Assuming the Phils shopped him, and got the best possible deal they could, it was not full contract value - Thome was worth less. So Williams did well for himself. A deal that didn't blow up in his face. It easily could have.
<!--quoteo(post=59232:date=Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 21 2009, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Regardless, the amount they were paying Thome and Vazquez barely changes the equation. The Sox were responsible for half of Thome's salary, and more than half of Vazquez's salary in 2007, and ALL of Vazquez's 2008 salary. That comes out to maybe 10 million in 2007 and 7 million in 2008. That's doesn't fundamentally change the fact that both teams had roughly the same payroll. Yet the media will continue to act as if <b>Hendry is Cashman and Williams is Beane.</b><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Up until this year, Hendry had the ability to go out and sign a lot of guys to very big contracts. See my post above. Williams has only done that with two guys - Buehrle and Konerko. Everything else he did was getting guys willing to come on shorter term deals, for less money. I'm really surprised you think the playing field is tilted in Williams favor in this discussion.
Take the Cubs and Sox out of the equation. If you had a choice as a GM between having the ability to go to the FA market and spend about 300mm on 7 FA/retainees of your choice, or the ability to spend much less, on guys willing to take shorter deals, and having to take on other team's rejects and their salary, which would you choose?
I have always that i wish the Sox had the ability to spend money the way Hendry did - but not in the results he got for them. Past the Yanks and the Red Sox, how many teams have gone to FA and spent like the Cubs have? The White Sox have not done that.