08-21-2009, 09:53 AM
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->That payroll was very deceiving - I don\'t recall if it was Top 5 or not (USA Today\'s Salary DB would answer that Q if we looked) but it was bouyed by the money that the Phillies and the DBacks/Yanks sent over with Thome/Vazquez. The Sox expenditure during those years was lower than it looked. It was also pumped up, short term, with the extra revenue from the World Series - and the subsequent ticket sales. While they have retained some of it, they have lost a good chunk also.
You understand that all of this is completely irrelevant to your point, right? You wanted to know what KW would do with a large payroll. He\'s had it for the last 3 years. It doesn\'t matter who is actually paying for Jim Thome, KW still has him. He has a 15 million dollar player on his payroll. It doesn\'t matter who is footing the bill. If the Sox were only paying half of Thome\'s salary, it\'s not as if they are only getting half of his production.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree BT. The reason Philly sent a ton of money is because Thome wasn\'t worth what he was being paid. Same with Javy. KW didn\'t have 17mm to spend, he had Jim Thome and 8mm in cash. Same with Javy. I'm not curious what he'd do with a large bottom line payroll #. I am curious as to what he'd be able to do with the ability to go out and spend that sort of money on FAs and draftees. There is a difference. Hendry spend big $ on Soriano (over 100mm), Bradley (30mm), Fuk (40mm), Demp (50mm), Lilly (40mm), Aramis (75mm), Lee (65mm), etc. During that time, I think KW spent big money on Buehrle (55mm), Konerko (60mm) and Dye (22mm)
You have to recognize the difference in that...right?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Ok - I\'ll look it up - I\'m curious. #12 with 96mm this year, #5 with 121mm last year (Money from Philly paid for Thome), #5 at 108 in 07 (and a shitty team).
Again, a bit misleading, as the Sox now have at least (I think) another 15 million on for Peavy and Rios. So the Sox payroll this year is at least 110 million which would put them very close to #5 again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be true if they were paying all of those salaries - but they were both acquired in Aug. So prorate them for 2 months of the season and the chunk is much smaller.
Again - there is a significant difference between adding up the annual salaries of all the guys on your team and figuring out how much money you have to make in order to be able to pay your liability to that player. The Sox liabilities in 09 to Peavy and Rios are small.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Yeah - not a small market payroll at all. But still 30% smaller than most of the Cubs teams - and they had to take on players who other teams were paying to get rid of (javy and Thome) just to do it. Give a guy like Williams $130mm free and clear - I think he acts differently. Not sure if that would be better or worse...
This makes no sense. Where are you getting the 30 percent thing? This year only? To sum this up, the Sox have had a higher payroll than the Cubs in 2 of the last 3 years, have nearly a top 5 payroll THIS year, but somehow because other people are paying parts of the contracts, Kenny payroll is less? The only way your analysis works is if it\'s exactly the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. If the Sox were paying the Phillies for Thomes to play for the Phillies, then Kenny\'s payroll numbers would be misleading. But it\'s the opposite. Regardless of who is cutting the checks, Kenny has had a top 5 salary roster to work with for the last 3 years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely and totally disagree with you. Williams only could get that kind of money by taking on other people\'s rejects. If the Cubs could send Soriano to Team X, and eat (for arguement\'s sake) 10mm per year of the remaining 5 years, wouldn\'t you think it is reasonable to count that 10mm against the Cubs payroll, as they were the ones paying it? Team X is getting that cash - so they aren\'t spending it out of pocket. They also are not going out there and taking on the risk of the whole contract, and getting the whole upside. They (like the Sox did with Thome, are taking on a less desireable guy and getting paid to do so.
Let me ask a Q. Do you believe KW had the ability to go out on the FA market and spend anywhere close to what Hendry has had over the last three years? Taking on other people\'s rejects and getting paid for it is not that same as being able to go out and get the best of the best. Just my 2 cents. Hendry has had, free and clear, all the money in the world to go out and do whatever he wanted. How many FAs has he signed? Soriano, Bradley, Fuk, etc... During that time, KW hasn\'t gone out once and gotten a big FA. My point was that I\'d love to see what each of them would do in the other\'s shoes.
You understand that all of this is completely irrelevant to your point, right? You wanted to know what KW would do with a large payroll. He\'s had it for the last 3 years. It doesn\'t matter who is actually paying for Jim Thome, KW still has him. He has a 15 million dollar player on his payroll. It doesn\'t matter who is footing the bill. If the Sox were only paying half of Thome\'s salary, it\'s not as if they are only getting half of his production.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree BT. The reason Philly sent a ton of money is because Thome wasn\'t worth what he was being paid. Same with Javy. KW didn\'t have 17mm to spend, he had Jim Thome and 8mm in cash. Same with Javy. I'm not curious what he'd do with a large bottom line payroll #. I am curious as to what he'd be able to do with the ability to go out and spend that sort of money on FAs and draftees. There is a difference. Hendry spend big $ on Soriano (over 100mm), Bradley (30mm), Fuk (40mm), Demp (50mm), Lilly (40mm), Aramis (75mm), Lee (65mm), etc. During that time, I think KW spent big money on Buehrle (55mm), Konerko (60mm) and Dye (22mm)
You have to recognize the difference in that...right?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Ok - I\'ll look it up - I\'m curious. #12 with 96mm this year, #5 with 121mm last year (Money from Philly paid for Thome), #5 at 108 in 07 (and a shitty team).
Again, a bit misleading, as the Sox now have at least (I think) another 15 million on for Peavy and Rios. So the Sox payroll this year is at least 110 million which would put them very close to #5 again.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would be true if they were paying all of those salaries - but they were both acquired in Aug. So prorate them for 2 months of the season and the chunk is much smaller.
Again - there is a significant difference between adding up the annual salaries of all the guys on your team and figuring out how much money you have to make in order to be able to pay your liability to that player. The Sox liabilities in 09 to Peavy and Rios are small.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Yeah - not a small market payroll at all. But still 30% smaller than most of the Cubs teams - and they had to take on players who other teams were paying to get rid of (javy and Thome) just to do it. Give a guy like Williams $130mm free and clear - I think he acts differently. Not sure if that would be better or worse...
This makes no sense. Where are you getting the 30 percent thing? This year only? To sum this up, the Sox have had a higher payroll than the Cubs in 2 of the last 3 years, have nearly a top 5 payroll THIS year, but somehow because other people are paying parts of the contracts, Kenny payroll is less? The only way your analysis works is if it\'s exactly the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. If the Sox were paying the Phillies for Thomes to play for the Phillies, then Kenny\'s payroll numbers would be misleading. But it\'s the opposite. Regardless of who is cutting the checks, Kenny has had a top 5 salary roster to work with for the last 3 years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely and totally disagree with you. Williams only could get that kind of money by taking on other people\'s rejects. If the Cubs could send Soriano to Team X, and eat (for arguement\'s sake) 10mm per year of the remaining 5 years, wouldn\'t you think it is reasonable to count that 10mm against the Cubs payroll, as they were the ones paying it? Team X is getting that cash - so they aren\'t spending it out of pocket. They also are not going out there and taking on the risk of the whole contract, and getting the whole upside. They (like the Sox did with Thome, are taking on a less desireable guy and getting paid to do so.
Let me ask a Q. Do you believe KW had the ability to go out on the FA market and spend anywhere close to what Hendry has had over the last three years? Taking on other people\'s rejects and getting paid for it is not that same as being able to go out and get the best of the best. Just my 2 cents. Hendry has had, free and clear, all the money in the world to go out and do whatever he wanted. How many FAs has he signed? Soriano, Bradley, Fuk, etc... During that time, KW hasn\'t gone out once and gotten a big FA. My point was that I\'d love to see what each of them would do in the other\'s shoes.