01-14-2009, 06:31 PM
<!--quoteo(post=11583:date=Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jan 14 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11581:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11575:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jan 14 2009, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=11571:date=Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM:name=Giff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giff @ Jan 14 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's actually a reasonable argument that Koufax shouldn't be in the HOF. I don't agree with it, but it's definitely there.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
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Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
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The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
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Let me preface this by saying I don't agree with this argument. I think Koufax belongs in the HOF, but I see a case to say he isn't, or at least not a slam dunk. (Also, I don't believe in all-encompassing stats that says who is average and who is not, but it's still a reasonable way to make a case, so here goes...)
If you look at his numbers, he was only a well above "average" pitcher for 6 of his 12 seasons (ERA+ of greater than 110, in this case). That's half of his time in the big leagues spent at mediocrity (or maybe a little better). He was incredibly dominant for 4 seasons. But those 4 seasons, the league average ERAs were 2.99, 3.25, 3.26, and 3.28. Obviously his ERAs of 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73 are still incredible, but it can't be forgotten that they came in a very pitcher-oriented era. And even after those 4 seasons (in a vacuum, one of the greatest 4-year stretches for a pitcher in history), his career ERA was 2.76. Obviously still very good, but coming in a pitcher dominated time, I wouldn't consider that slam dunk material.
I'm not even arguing that though. It's fine if someone doesn't think Koufax should be in there. But if they think the Hall should be THAT selective, then talking about Dale Murphy is an obvious non-starter. It's pointless to argue 3rd tier guys, if you don't think 2nd tier guys should get in.
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Yeah, I wasn't really speaking to anyone in particular, just making a comment. Because the general thought seems to be that he's as much of a lock as there is, but when you look at things he's really not.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only argument that you can make is that he only pitched 12 seasons and didn't have enough wins (whatever "enough" means). But if you look at his pedigree, it eclipses his longevity issues by far. And longevity, while a legitimate consideration, isn't the only thing to consider.
- 6 All-Star games
- 3 World Series rings
- 3 Cy Young Awards
- 1 MVP Award (how many pitchers have won an MVP?)
- 2 World Series MVPs
- 4 no-hitters (including a perfect game)
If Koufax doesn't belong in the Hall, then you need to throw out every other pitcher except maybe Bob Gibson, Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Tom Seaver. And you can probably let Maddux in when he's eligible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me preface this by saying I don't agree with this argument. I think Koufax belongs in the HOF, but I see a case to say he isn't, or at least not a slam dunk. (Also, I don't believe in all-encompassing stats that says who is average and who is not, but it's still a reasonable way to make a case, so here goes...)
If you look at his numbers, he was only a well above "average" pitcher for 6 of his 12 seasons (ERA+ of greater than 110, in this case). That's half of his time in the big leagues spent at mediocrity (or maybe a little better). He was incredibly dominant for 4 seasons. But those 4 seasons, the league average ERAs were 2.99, 3.25, 3.26, and 3.28. Obviously his ERAs of 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73 are still incredible, but it can't be forgotten that they came in a very pitcher-oriented era. And even after those 4 seasons (in a vacuum, one of the greatest 4-year stretches for a pitcher in history), his career ERA was 2.76. Obviously still very good, but coming in a pitcher dominated time, I wouldn't consider that slam dunk material.
The thing you need to remember is that all Cardinals fans and all White Sox fans are very bad people. It's a fact that has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Being a Cubs fan is the only path to rightousness and piousness. Cardinal and White Sox fans exist to be the dark, diabolical forces that oppose us. They are the yin to our yang, the Joker to our Batman, the demon to our angel, the insurgence to our freedom, the oil to our water, the club to our baby seal. Their happiness occurs only in direct conflict with everything that is pure and good in this world.
-Dirk
-Dirk