2021 Team

[funkster]

 

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="VanSlawAndCottoCheese" data-cid="359456" data-time="1627849509">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Butcher" data-cid="359446" data-time="1627794485">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="VanSlawAndCottoCheese" data-cid="359437" data-time="1627755148">
Butch, I can't believe we're talking about <a class="bbc_url" href="https://blogs.fangraphs.com/craig-kimbrel-rides-the-red-line-to-the-south-side/" title="External link">the same Nick Madrigal</a>. His defense was <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=400&type=1&season=2021&month=0&season1=2021&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2021-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31" title="External link">absolutely fine </a>(some might even say good!) this year; anyone telling you different is probably going off of his SSS from last year. I think the trade is fair, perhaps in the Cubs favor. The idea that Hahn took Hoyer is fantastical.

 

And Kimbrel has been outstanding this year, sure, but he wasn't in 2019 nor 2020, and Madrigal and Heuer are players with major track records, not proven prospects. I can't help but think that if this same trade was done but it was with the Rangers instead of the White Sox, you'd be fine with this trade.

To be fair, I havent seen much of his actual play. So maybe his weakness on defense is overblown. But Ive seen his baseball reference page and I know for certain that if Nico and Nico Jr is our double play combo, we are fucked. You might have been able to get away with a 2B and SS who combine for 4 home runs back in the 70s, but not anymore.



You also have to look at Kimbrels value in context. What type of player helps a playoff team more in October than an absolute lockdown reliever? He was our most valuable trade chip and he isnt even really a rental. And this was the best Hoyer could get in return? He got fleeced. Theres no other way to look at it. Its embarrassing how badly he got fleeced.
 


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Honestly, this sounds as crazy to me as "the election was stolen," man. It's one thing to think the White Sox won the trade, but to think that Hoyer got fleeced is absolute madness. The only way to think that right now, when everyone with real baseball knowledge says differently is to think you are a better GM then Hoyer. It's to assume that every team that was calling in on Kimbrel were offering better players than Madrigal/Heuer and Hoyer refused. It's to assume that other teams aren't eying 2019-2020 Kimbrel with suspicion. And it's undervaluing Madrigal--and Heuer for that matter.

 

It really disturbs me to see you engage in this glorification of Rick Hahn, Butch.

 

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First off, fuck Rick Hahn.

 

What, because Hoyer is smart it isn't possible that he got fleeced? Theo, who is widely accepted as one of the greatest GMs of all time, got absolutely humiliated in the Quintana trade. It happens even to the best GMs. Maybe Hoyer didn't have the bandwidth to execute all of these trades properly as the clock was ticking. Maybe he's overvaluing contact hitting as a skill because the offense as a whole has been very strikeout-prone the last few years (bringing Sogard to the roster this season might speak to that, too). Maybe he accepted a lesser offer because Madrigal is his goddamned nephew. You're right -- I don't know all of the details. I don't have any insider knowledge about what other teams were offering or if they were nervous about Kimbrel not being entirely "fixed" or anything else. But given that Kimbrel was our biggest trade chip in this situation, I firmly believe he could have and should have gotten more.

 

And now I'm seeing this quote from Hoyer that the Core weren't willing to negotiate and that the Cubs actually made them all very good offers. I don't buy that for a fucking second. This feels like corporate damage control and it makes me want to take a shower. I'm beginning to think Hoyer isn't the golden boy that we all assumed he was as Theo's protege.

 

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I am in the middle here, I don't think Madrigal is as bad as you think he is..but I do agree in that I feel like we could have gotten a bit better for Kimbrel.  Who knows, sounds like Glasnow was on the table from the Rays?  Maybe a better deal just wasn't there.  Overall I think Jed did really well with his trades.