07-27-2010, 10:36 AM
<!--quoteo(post=108154:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jul 27 2010, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108147:date=Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM:name=Rappster)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rappster @ Jul 27 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108132:date=Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jul 27 2010, 08:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=108111:date=Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jul 26 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So, I just looked this up.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again...exactly. We all know that assumptions are part of opinion, but none of us can pretend we're flies on the clubhouse wall. We always seem content to assume the worst, and give zero benefit to the doubt.
Also...there are always myriad "out of the box" suggestions presented on here. These guys made one. Does anyone think they had any desire to lose Z from the rotation? Do we really think they were working from malice? Come on...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the fuck said anything about malice? I doubt anyone thinks the Cubs were doing this just because they didn't like Zambrano. I think they thought it was a good idea. That's what scares me, because it wasn't a good idea. It was stupid.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straw made the hyperbolic claim that they were gaslighting him, that's where the malice statement comes from.
The Z to the bullpen move happened on April 21.
April 21!
You know how many starts Gorz and Silva had under their belts at that point in the season? 2. It's worse than I even remembered.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me ask you guys a few questions.
On April 21, who was the worst starter in the Cubs 2010 rotation? Zambrano
On April 21, which starting pitcher had the best shot at shoring up the Cubs 8th inning problems? Zambrano.
Given those 2 facts, you have to come up with a reason NOT to take Zambrano out.
Dempster offered the same issues as Zambrano, and was pitching better. Wells was young, getting experience as a starter, and was pitching better than Zambrano. Gorz was left handed, pitching better than Z, and would do absolutely NOTHING to help the Cub's 8th inning problem. Silva was, and shocking still is, our best starter. He also would not have helped with the 8th inning, as teams tend to go with hard throwers.
On April 21, Zambrano was the obvious choice to be bumped due to his 2010 production. However, you guys argue that you can't simply take 2010 into account. You have to take into account that he has been a dominant pitcher in his career. You argue that the Cubs were idiots for not taking this into account. The problem with that line of thinking is that the Cubs DID take his career into account. Not his 2007 season, but his 2009 season. When taking that into account, it was unimpressive enough that the Cubs hoped moving him to the 8th would HELP him get back to where he was before. Zambrano's recent history worked AGAINST keeping him in the rotation.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->And how did it turn out in the end? Did it work?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Tom, it did. It didn't work for Zambrano, but the starters, with the exception of Wells (who I don't think anyone was arguing should go to the bp ahead of Z) and one week of Silva, have been better than Zambrano's 2009. I'm fairly confident the Cubs have kept the correct 5 starters out there. Silva may end up worse, and last night might be the result of facing the Astros, but the fact is, as we speak, on July 27th, he has been one of our best 2 starters. Going forward, that could change, and if it does, we can always stick Zambrano back in there.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It wasn't just stupid. I swear...they were gaslighting him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this is what drives me fucking nuts about this board. This is why I spend time defending decisions I'm not completely happy with. At the time of the move, I would not have chosen Zambrano. I probably would have moved Gorz. In retrospect, maybe moving Wells would have made more sense, but I'm intellectually honest enough to realize I would not have done that in the moment. Saying that moving Zambrano to the pen was not the correct move is completely justifiable. Saying you wouldn't have done it is completely justifiable. But that is not what we do on this board. I'm not picking on straw, just using his quote as an example. On this board, moving Zambrano to the pen isn't a move we disagree with. It's insane. It's unjustifiable. It's underhanded. It's an example that no one in the organization knows what they are doing. It's a move no rational human being would make.
The move was completely justifiable. It comes from a logical parsing of the statistics available at that time. That doesn't mean it's the "right" move, that doesn't mean there aren't other, logical moves that also makes sense. It does mean that guys who have spent their whole lives working in the field of baseball made a rational choice that some may disagree with.
If you guys want to argue you wouldn't have moved Z to the pen, fine knock yourselves out. I only started to really defend the move when you guys kept insisting it was a move only Hitler would have made.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again...exactly. We all know that assumptions are part of opinion, but none of us can pretend we're flies on the clubhouse wall. We always seem content to assume the worst, and give zero benefit to the doubt.
Also...there are always myriad "out of the box" suggestions presented on here. These guys made one. Does anyone think they had any desire to lose Z from the rotation? Do we really think they were working from malice? Come on...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who the fuck said anything about malice? I doubt anyone thinks the Cubs were doing this just because they didn't like Zambrano. I think they thought it was a good idea. That's what scares me, because it wasn't a good idea. It was stupid.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Straw made the hyperbolic claim that they were gaslighting him, that's where the malice statement comes from.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.