Fire Lou

[Butcher]

BT -- I love that you're able to make a convincing argument and hold your ground, no matter what the position. If Lou brought Zambrano off the bench to pinch hit in that situation, you'd find a way to argue that position. If he left Hill in to execute a suicide squeeze, then that would have been the right move. It takes talent to pull that off.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Most major league managers would not pinch hit a right handed catcher for a right handed catcher against a right handed pitcher in the seventh inning of a one run game with the bases loaded while a perfectly serviceable (at worst) left handed hitter is available. Period. It doesn't happen. You might disagree with the move, but you cannot, in good conscience pretend that this isn't the gold standard move for ANY major league manager.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pssst. Koyie Hill is a switch hitter. He would have hit lefty in that situation. So, Lou wasn't trying to pull some sort of "handedness" move in this situation. He was just trying to get *a better hitter* to the plate. And you can't tell me that the gold standard for ANY major league manager is to burn two players to make one move. If all things were equal, you could make the argument that bringing in Colvin to face Blanton was a good decision -- and I could agree with you. However, that wasn't the case. Lou essentially used two players for one AB when a pretty good hitting catcher was on the bench and he could have made a one-for-one swap. You can argue all you want that this was the most pivotal moment of the game and Tyler Colvin was the best option in that situation (although...that's pretty funny when you think about it), but you have to manage your bench wisely. Using Colvin when Soto was available was completely unnecessary. Take out your light-hitting backup catcher, replace him with your good hitting starting catcher. Because...if you pinch hit Hill with someone else, you have to bring Soto in anyway. It's so simple and yet Lou has to make it complicated -- it's like how he feels the need to double switch every time he makes a pitching change late in the game. He's over-managing.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Most major league managers, if given the choice between 2 bad right handers or one AWFUL left hander to bring in to face Utley, Howard and Ibanez, would choose the awful left hander. This is fact. It's remotely possible that if there was a really really good right hander available, a manager might not bring in the lefty, but Lou didn't have that choice.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...I could bring in Carlos Zambrano to face the heart of the Phillies order...or John Grabow. Gosh...that's a tough decision. I promise you -- nobody would have been calling for Lou's head if he used Zambrano in that situation over Grabow. Nobody who has been paying attention gives a fuck that Grabow throws with his left hand -- because he has sucked complete ass no matter what the situation. Zambrano started the season shaky, but you've probably noticed that he's been better out of the pen lately. His last three appearances, he's held opponents to a .111/.200/.222 line. He has also been one of our most dependable pitchers over the last 7+ years.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->you are on extremely shaky ground<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anyone who can argue putting Grabow in to face the heart of the Phillies' order in the 8th inning of a tie game is rewriting the very definition of "shaky ground."

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=99476:date=Jun 2 2010, 08:27 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99461:date=Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And Scarey can defend Lou all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Lou had absolutely no idea that Theriot had only one walk in May. He was genuinely flummoxed. This is a man who's given computer print outs on a daily basis and yet still had to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you know that Theriot only had one walk? I understand that it's not your job to keep track of Theriot's walks, but guess what? It's not Lou's job either! It's Lou's job to track how well his players are doing and he knew Theriot wasn't walking much already and that he was in a big slump. Think about this for a second: you're slamming him because he didn't know exactly how bad Theriot's walk total in a given time frame. To say he "has to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team" is huge, HUGE stretch. Do you expect him to know off hand how many extra base hits Aramis has had in the last four weeks? Or how many outfield assists Soriano has had in the last 6 weeks? Like I said before, if that's your big beef with the guy than you're looking for reasons to dislike him at this point.
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I expect the manager of a major league team to know EXACTLY what every player is doing on his team. Lou had no idea how bad it was with Theriot. He may have known Theriot was struggling, but he didn't have an inkling of how bad it was. He was absolutely, completely, and totally clueless.

[Scarey]

When did it become necessary to call out the manager for over-managing every time a double switch is used? What's wrong with a double switch?

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=99495:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When did it become necessary to call out the manager for over-managing every time a double switch is used? What's wrong with a double switch?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


You'll defend anything Lou does. You will never criticize him for anything. You're Lou love has completely blinded you.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99494:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99476:date=Jun 2 2010, 08:27 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99461:date=Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And Scarey can defend Lou all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Lou had absolutely no idea that Theriot had only one walk in May. He was genuinely flummoxed. This is a man who's given computer print outs on a daily basis and yet still had to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you know that Theriot only had one walk? I understand that it's not your job to keep track of Theriot's walks, but guess what? It's not Lou's job either! It's Lou's job to track how well his players are doing and he knew Theriot wasn't walking much already and that he was in a big slump. Think about this for a second: you're slamming him because he didn't know exactly how bad Theriot's walk total in a given time frame. To say he "has to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team" is huge, HUGE stretch. Do you expect him to know off hand how many extra base hits Aramis has had in the last four weeks? Or how many outfield assists Soriano has had in the last 6 weeks? Like I said before, if that's your big beef with the guy than you're looking for reasons to dislike him at this point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I expect the manager of a major league team to know EXACTLY what every player is doing on his team. Lou had no idea how bad it was with Theriot. He may have known Theriot was struggling, but he didn't have an inkling of how bad it was. He was absolutely, completely, and totally clueless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You're making assumptions. You can't state assumptions as fact.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt seeing as he's been doing this for 23 years.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=99495:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When did it become necessary to call out the manager for over-managing every time a double switch is used? What's wrong with a double switch?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have no problem with a double switch if there's a reason for it. Lou does it every time he makes a visit to the mound.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=99497:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:13 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99494:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99476:date=Jun 2 2010, 08:27 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99461:date=Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And Scarey can defend Lou all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Lou had absolutely no idea that Theriot had only one walk in May. He was genuinely flummoxed. This is a man who's given computer print outs on a daily basis and yet still had to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you know that Theriot only had one walk? I understand that it's not your job to keep track of Theriot's walks, but guess what? It's not Lou's job either! It's Lou's job to track how well his players are doing and he knew Theriot wasn't walking much already and that he was in a big slump. Think about this for a second: you're slamming him because he didn't know exactly how bad Theriot's walk total in a given time frame. To say he "has to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team" is huge, HUGE stretch. Do you expect him to know off hand how many extra base hits Aramis has had in the last four weeks? Or how many outfield assists Soriano has had in the last 6 weeks? Like I said before, if that's your big beef with the guy than you're looking for reasons to dislike him at this point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I expect the manager of a major league team to know EXACTLY what every player is doing on his team. Lou had no idea how bad it was with Theriot. He may have known Theriot was struggling, but he didn't have an inkling of how bad it was. He was absolutely, completely, and totally clueless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You're making assumptions. You can't state assumptions as fact.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt seeing as he's been doing this for 23 years.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I don't give a shit how long he's managed. He may have been a great manager at one time, but it was aa long time ago. He's lost it. He's done. He needs to retire to Margaritaville, as if he hasn't already done so in his mind. He's lost control of the ship.

Two years ago, I loved Lou, but this isn't the same guy. Time to let go.

[ruby23]

Anyone defending Lou is wrong, it's really that simple.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99496:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99495:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 2 2010, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->When did it become necessary to call out the manager for over-managing every time a double switch is used? What's wrong with a double switch?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


You'll defend anything Lou does. You will never criticize him for anything. You're Lou love has completely blinded you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And you're a grumpy fuck that has to find something to scapegoat. You'll also jump all over every single fucking comment that anyone makes that isn't negative towards your scapegoat.

I'm not even fucking defending him, especially in that statement above. It's become common place here that a double switch can in no way be beneficial, and I disagree.

I've criticized Lou plenty of times. I've stated he's not the right manager for the Cubs going forward. I've said I would be indifferent if he were fired. HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT MAKE ME BLIND WITH LOVE FOR LOU!!!????

This incessant bitching about every little microscopic flaw is fucking childish, and I don't see it changing with the next manager. Or the next one. Or the next one. That's why I speak up. Not for Lou, but for the fact that using conjecture as a reason to scapegoat someone (especially the manager who doesn't have as much an effect on the outsome as some people think) is ridiculous. Just as BT was saying, the next manager is going to get the same treatment as soon as his team dips below .500. Maybe it won't be "he's too old" or "he doesn't care". Maybe it will be, "he doesn't have enough experience controlling a clubhouse" or "his style is behind the times with the current game". Whatever the case may be, I can promise you this. The performance of the manager will be judged in hindsight. It always is. The only person I can't say this about is Ruby.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99499:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:15 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 10:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I don't give a shit how long he's managed. He may have been a great manager at one time, but it was aa long time ago. He's lost it. He's done. He needs to retire to Margaritaville, as if he hasn't already done so in his mind. He's lost control of the ship.

Two years ago, I loved Lou, but this isn't the same guy. Time to let go.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think it's incredibly difficult for a person's state of mind to change as dramatically as you are stating in the course of two years. I think the only reason you think he's lost it is because the Cubs are 24-29. You're reacting to the results and finding reasons to placate Lou after the matter. You're seeing the effect, and making generalized comments based on his age as the cause.

He's doing the same things this year that he did in 2008. The only difference is his players played better for him then.

[BT]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->BT -- I love that you're able to make a convincing argument and hold your ground, no matter what the position. If Lou brought Zambrano off the bench to pinch hit in that situation, you'd find a way to argue that position. If he left Hill in to execute a suicide squeeze, then that would have been the right move. It takes talent to pull that off.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's cheap, condescending and unfair. It's also complete fucking bullshit. I'm not arguing some insane web of circumstances which, in theory, could prove my point. I'm arguing most managers would bring in a lefty to face a right handed pitcher, and most managers would bring in a left hander to face a lineup that is markedly worse against a left hander.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Pssst. Koyie Hill is a switch hitter. He would have hit lefty in that situation. So, Lou wasn't trying to pull some sort of "handedness" move in this situation. He was just trying to get *a better hitter* to the plate.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

yes, and he brought in a left handed better hitter. which is what virtually every manager on the planet would do.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->So...I could bring in Carlos Zambrano to face the heart of the Phillies order...or John Grabow.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And most managers, given their performances at that point in time, and given how the heart of the order is worse against lefties, would bring in a lefty. This is not revelatory, or ground breaking or shocking. It's how almost every manager in the world works. If Zambrano had been so great BEFORE May 20, Pinella might have said fuck the percentages and put him in instead of Grabow. However, Zambrano was BAD before May 20, so he didn't. Zambrano's dazzling performance AFTER the fact doesn't mean anything.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Anyone who can argue putting Grabow in to face the heart of the Phillies' order in the 8th inning of a tie game is rewriting the very definition of "shaky ground."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I repeat, bullshit. I'm arguing that it's reasonable to put in a terrible lefty over 2 bad righties to face a lefthanded lineup. To be clear, you are saying that putting a bad right hander in to face 3 very good lefties was CLEARLY the right move. It's not. Again, not reinventing the wheel. Basic baseball.

You can keep mocking my position on the basis that it's my position, or you can take your blinders off and look at it logically. Putting in a lefthanded batter to face a right handed reliever is not a move that costs you the game, regardless of whether or not it "burns" someone. With bases loaded in the 7th you aren't playing for what ifs in the ninth. Putting a lefthanded pitcher in to face lefthanders is not a move that costs you the game, unless you have a clearly better right handed option, which the Cubs didn't have.

I'm right on this butch, and mocking my opinions won't change that. No reasonable unbiased person with baseball knowledge would look at those 2 moves as being so bad as to have cost the team the game. And I would make the same argument if you were mocking a move Dusty Baker made in a Reds game. Not because I love Dusty, but because it's fucking logical.

[Fella]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]

Wow, its been a while since we had an angry thread like this.

[Butcher]

So...in your universe (and Lou's), handedness trumps everything else.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->yes, and he brought in a left handed better hitter. which is what virtually every manager on the planet would do<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he was pinch hitting for the pitcher, then yes -- absolutely. You're ignoring the fact that he was pinch hitting for the catcher. And we had a good hitting catcher on the bench -- who had to come into the game anyway. In that circumstance, you can forget about which side of the plate Soto bats from. Bringing him in and saving Colvin was the most logical move there.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->To be clear, you are saying that putting a bad right hander in to face 3 very good lefties was CLEARLY the right move.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. To be clear, I'm saying that Carlos Zambrano, despite his rocky start, is a GOOD pitcher who has faced the heart of many lineups with much success. I'm also saying that John Grabow couldn't retire the heart of a Pony League lineup. You're ignoring how godawful Grabow has been and completely focusing on which hand he throws the ball with. I can see why you're taking Lou's side on this.

You can't defend bringing in Grabow into that situation -- or any meaningful situation. You simply can't. It isn't just a "bad" left-handed pitcher. Grabow has been so mind-bogglingly bad that I would rather put Neal Cotts into the game. And you know how I feel about Neal Cotts.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99519:date=Jun 2 2010, 11:00 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 2 2010, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->So...in your universe (and Lou's), handedness trumps everything else.

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->yes, and he brought in a left handed better hitter. which is what virtually every manager on the planet would do<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he was pinch hitting for the pitcher, then yes -- absolutely. You're ignoring the fact that he was pinch hitting for the catcher. And we had a good hitting catcher on the bench -- who had to come into the game anyway. In that circumstance, you can forget about which side of the plate Soto bats from. Bringing him in and saving Colvin was the most logical move there.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->To be clear, you are saying that putting a bad right hander in to face 3 very good lefties was CLEARLY the right move.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope. To be clear, I'm saying that Carlos Zambrano, despite his rocky start, is a GOOD pitcher who has faced the heart of many lineups with much success. I'm also saying that John Grabow couldn't retire the heart of a Pony League lineup. You're ignoring how godawful Grabow has been and completely focusing on which hand he throws the ball with. I can see why you're taking Lou's side on this.

You can't defend bringing in Grabow into that situation -- or any meaningful situation. You simply can't. It isn't just a "bad" left-handed pitcher. Grabow has been so mind-bogglingly bad that I would rather put Neal Cotts into the game. And you know how I feel about Neal Cotts.
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I disagreed with the move, but given what Lou had to work with in the situation I didn't think it was a completely obvious decision that he went against.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=99501:date=Jun 2 2010, 10:17 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 2 2010, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Anyone defending Lou is wrong, it's really that simple.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Profound and correct, you're a smart dude.