Fire Lou

[rok]

This team is disgusting to watch.

[Runnys]

<!--quoteo(post=99403:date=Jun 1 2010, 08:41 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jun 1 2010, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->This team is disgusting to watch.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I honestly wonder why I keep watching. Losing is the only thing this team does well.

[Ace]

Credit to Lou for the lineup tonight. It didn't work, but it was the right move.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=99410:date=Jun 1 2010, 08:47 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 1 2010, 08:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Credit to Lou for the lineup tonight. It didn't work, but it was the right move.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I give him credit for trying, but it's becoming clear that this team is going to be like this for the remainder of the season. It really feels as though 2009 (or some would say the 2008 playoffs) never ended.

[dk123]

If Lou is guilty of anything this year, it's consistently leaving the SP in too long. I mean, I understand that the pen is not very good, but it has happened quite often that the SP is clearly losing it, and yet Lou keeps him in, with generally poor results.

[Destined]

<!--quoteo(post=99410:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:47 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Jun 1 2010, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Credit to Lou for the lineup tonight. It didn't work, but it was the right move.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would say Nady worked.

[BT]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Sorry, BT -- just because you can argue another side doesn't mean that they are good arguments.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No, they are good arguments because they make sense. Or to put it another way, Sorry Butch-- just because you don't agree with the argument doesn't mean it's a bad argument.

Because you are Butch, I'll try to be as polite as I can, but you are fucking nuts.

Pinch hitting your BEST hitter in a crucial late inning situation is NOT the actions of a senile old man. I don't give a fat flying fuck if Soto was coming into the game anyway. There is nothing wrong with using you BEST hitter from the bench in that situation. How this is arguable is beyond me. Worst though, you describe the manager of the Cubs using his BEST bench hitter, who also bats opposite of the pitcher, as PROOF that he doesn't know what he is doing.

My burden of proof is so much lower than yours, it's not even funny. All I have to do is prove that it's a reasonable move. You, on the other hand, have to prove that no creditable manager would even try it. That any manager dumb enough to put in his BEST left handed hitter against a righty in a 1 run game in the seventh inning is not only wrong, but laughably so. I'd argue that at least 20 of the 30 managers in the major leagues would do EXACTLY what Lou did in that situation. Obviously I can't prove it, but putting in a lefty to face a righty is such a no fucking brainer move it's laughable.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Fucking ANYONE. Anyone other than Grabow. Pick a fan out of the fucking stands. I would have been OK with any pitcher in that spot other than Grabow. Name a pitcher on our roster, and I would have been happier with that decision.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Putting aside the fact that the rules don't allow Pinella to put in a fan, his choices were Berg, Grabow or Zambrano. Stevens and Russel had already pitched. Marmol was unavailable, making Marshall unavailable. Berg had an ERA of almost 7. Zambrano had pitched the day before, AND it was just announced that he was going back into the rotation. AND was mostly ineffective out of the bullpen. AND had an ERA of almost 7.

So in your world, the way a manager proves he is smart, the way he DOESN'T lose a game, the only rational thing to do is to put in 1 of 2 completely ineffective right handed pitchers to face 3 tough lefties who are worse against left handers. Clearly only an irrational senile bad manager would chose the lefty out of that group.

Add to that the fact that the only way to prove he was a good manager the inning before was to put in a right hander to pinch hit for a right hander against a right hander, with the bases loaded, down by one, while leaving a good left hander on the bench JUST IN CASE WE NEED HIM LATER.

that is your proof of Lou's inability to manage.

For something to be indefensibly bad, it has to be, by definition, indefensible. Those moves are completely and utterly defensible. Not throw-some-shit-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks defensible. But defensible as in, the kind of shit every manager does every night in baseball defensible.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99377:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:32 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99375:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99373:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was predictable and ran his pitchers into the ground. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Lou being a bumbling drunk though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What were your thoughts on Baylor?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He had very little to work with. There were also 2 other managers in between Baylor and Baker.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Ok. What did you think of Bruce Kimm and whoever else you're talking about?

[Kid]

<!--quoteo(post=99377:date=Jun 1 2010, 07:32 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99375:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99373:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was predictable and ran his pitchers into the ground. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Lou being a bumbling drunk though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What were your thoughts on Baylor?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He had very little to work with. There were also 2 other managers in between Baylor and Baker.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're counting the 1 game that Rene Lachemann managed between when Baylor was fired and when Kimm came up from Iowa?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Pinch hitting your BEST hitter in a crucial late inning situation is NOT the actions of a senile old man.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

BT -- Colvin is our best hitter? Really? He has 123 total plate appearances. I'd say it's a little early to make that statement. By the way, he's hitting .264/.328/.481 in those 123 major league plate appearances, so if he's our best hitter, we're royally fucked.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I don't give a fat flying fuck if Soto was coming into the game anyway. There is nothing wrong with using you BEST hitter from the bench in that situation.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The fact that he pinch hit for a catcher with Colvin...when a pretty good hitting catcher was on the bench is the problem here. If Tyler Colvin was really our best hitter, or he was even a better hitter than Soto, you could *maybe* make a case for this move. If you're going to pinch hit for Hill (which is a move I'm fine with), then using Soto in that situation was the right move.

I don't want to get into a big stats comparison, but Blanton isn't that tough on righties. His splits against LHB is actually a little better than RHB. I could also point out that Colvin is hitting .208/.259/.458 as a sub vs. Soto hitting .250/.351/.375 as a sub. I just don't see why you would waste the appearance from Colvin in that situation. Substitute Soto for Hill and you still have Colvin to pinch hit in the 9th if you need him.

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Putting aside the fact that the rules don't allow Pinella to put in a fan, his choices were Berg, Grabow or Zambrano. Stevens and Russel had already pitched. Marmol was unavailable, making Marshall unavailable.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marshall can go for more than one inning. But let's assume he was truly "unavailable." Do you think anyone on the planet would have screamed, "ZAMBRANO?! WHY THE FUCK IS LOU USING ZAMBRANO WHEN GRABOW IS AVAILABLE?!" if he put Zambrano in for the 8th? No. Because Grabow is our worst option available in ANY situation. He has given up at least a run in his last 7 appearances. His fucking WHIP is 2.150. <b>And Lou has pitched him in 30 games so far.</b> I assume you've seen Grabow pitch this season, so it boggles my mind that you can even attempt to argue that choosing him for any meaningful situation, no matter what the other options are (assuming the other options are major league pitchers with their arms still attached), is sane.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=99443:date=Jun 1 2010, 11:15 PM:name=Kid)-->QUOTE (Kid @ Jun 1 2010, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99377:date=Jun 1 2010, 07:32 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99375:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Jun 1 2010, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99373:date=Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99352:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99350:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99349:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 1 2010, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=99347:date=Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Jun 1 2010, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If you don't think Lou's lackadasical attitude is refleted in the way this team plays and has played for the past 2 years, I don't know what to tell you. I don't care if changing managers guides the team to more wins or not, I just don't want to sit here and question every fucking thing he does because it seems wrong. Just fill out a lineup properly, make picthing changes that make sense, and don't double switch just because you can. That's all I ask, that's all I want, and I'm not getting it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


My point is Ruby, you will question the moves of EVERY manager that manages a losing team, and you will question the attitude of EVERY team that can't score runs. Because that is what fans do.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not correct though, I've questioned Lou since the second he was hired. It has nothing to do with the W/L, it has to do with me being mega annoyed everytime I see him do the wrong thing and everytime I see his ugly fucking face. I don't want to hear him talk, I don't want to look at him, and I don't want him to manage the Cubs anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

what were your thoughts on Baker?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He was predictable and ran his pitchers into the ground. I fail to see how that has anything to do with Lou being a bumbling drunk though.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What were your thoughts on Baylor?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He had very little to work with. There were also 2 other managers in between Baylor and Baker.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're counting the 1 game that Rene Lachemann managed between when Baylor was fired and when Kimm came up from Iowa?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, I was also being a dick.

Also, Bruce Kimm should have never been a MLB manager, interim or not.

[veryzer]

Lou has the demeanor of a man who's already given up. When I look at him, when I listen to him, I see and hear someone who appears to have retired a couple years ago. He looks like a drunken hobo. He stammers like Ozzy Osbourne. He has no clue about what's going on on his own team. He instills zero confidence.

Are those sufficient reasons to fire him? Probably not, but sometimes perception is reality, and the perception of Lou that I have is that he's a dottering old fool.

I didn't watch the game last night (why would I?) but I heard after future Hall of Famer Neal Walker hit the go-ahead home run, Lou shrugged. He shrugged as if to say, "What are ya gonna do?" If that's true, then it tells me all I need to know. He has to go.

And Scarey can defend Lou all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Lou had absolutely no idea that Theriot had only one walk in May. He was genuinely flummoxed. This is a man who's given computer print outs on a daily basis and yet still had to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team.

The Cubs are gonna lose 90 games this year, but Lou won't get fired.

[BT]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->BT -- Colvin is our best hitter? Really?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No, which is why you had to cherry pick the ONE time out of FIVE I didn't specifically qualify "best" with either bench hitter or lefty on the bench.

Look, we can argue the statistics back and forth all day, but after looking over these decisions, you are on extremely shaky ground.

You are trying to argue that not only do you disagree with his moves, but that they were so obviously bad, they CAUSED the Cubs to lose. This is, in a word, nonsense.

Most major league managers would not pinch hit a right handed catcher for a right handed catcher against a right handed pitcher in the seventh inning of a one run game with the bases loaded while a perfectly serviceable (at worst) left handed hitter is available. Period. It doesn't happen. You might disagree with the move, but you cannot, in good conscience pretend that this isn't the gold standard move for ANY major league manager.

I could give you about 10 reasons why "saving" Colvin is a laughably bad move. What if the Philllies have a lefty pitching in the 9th? What if the Cubs score 5 runs before then? What if the Phillies score 5 runs before then? What if the guys who are due up in the 9th are lefties? What if the guys due up in the 9th are our 3-4-5 hitters? etc. (as a side note, I'd just like to note how comically unfair it is for you to simultaneously argue that the only sane move was saving Colvin, but that Lou was a dipshit for not bringing in his CLOSER, Marshall, in a tie game with nobody on and nobody out in the 8th inning. You don't see a little lack of consistency there?).

Most major league managers, if given the choice between 2 bad right handers or one AWFUL left hander to bring in to face Utley, Howard and Ibanez, would choose the awful left hander. This is fact. It's remotely possible that if there was a really really good right hander available, a manager might not bring in the lefty, but Lou didn't have that choice.

Both of these moves are entirely conventional. For your theory of hanging this one on Lou to be valid, they would have to be UN-conventional. They weren't. Lou was stuck having to choose between 3 ugly choices. You can blame Hendry for giving Lou those 3 ugly choices. I will blame Grabow for having his worst year ever instead.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=99461:date=Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Lou has the demeanor of a man who's already given up. When I look at him, when I listen to him, I see and hear someone who appears to have retired a couple years ago. He looks like a drunken hobo. He stammers like Ozzy Osbourne. He has no clue about what's going on on his own team. He instills zero confidence.

Are those sufficient reasons to fire him? Probably not, but sometimes perception is reality, and the perception of Lou that I have is that he's a dottering old fool.

I didn't watch the game last night (why would I?) but I heard after future Hall of Famer Neal Walker hit the go-ahead home run, Lou shrugged. He shrugged as if to say, "What are ya gonna do?" If that's true, then it tells me all I need to know. He has to go.

And Scarey can defend Lou all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Lou had absolutely no idea that Theriot had only one walk in May. He was genuinely flummoxed. This is a man who's given computer print outs on a daily basis and yet still had to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team.

The Cubs are gonna lose 90 games this year, but Lou won't get fired.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just when I thought I couldn't love you more.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=99461:date=Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Jun 2 2010, 07:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And Scarey can defend Lou all he wants, but the fact of the matter is that Lou had absolutely no idea that Theriot had only one walk in May. He was genuinely flummoxed. This is a man who's given computer print outs on a daily basis and yet still had to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you know that Theriot only had one walk? I understand that it's not your job to keep track of Theriot's walks, but guess what? It's not Lou's job either! It's Lou's job to track how well his players are doing and he knew Theriot wasn't walking much already and that he was in a big slump. Think about this for a second: you're slamming him because he didn't know exactly how bad Theriot's walk total in a given time frame. To say he "has to be told by a reporter what was going on on his own team" is huge, HUGE stretch. Do you expect him to know off hand how many extra base hits Aramis has had in the last four weeks? Or how many outfield assists Soriano has had in the last 6 weeks? Like I said before, if that's your big beef with the guy than you're looking for reasons to dislike him at this point.