Z to the Pen

[ruby23]

I do like the effort of trying to tie a previous faulty argument to this one under the assumption that it would help justify your faulty argument here. Nice work.

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=96752:date=May 18 2010, 01:33 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 18 2010, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I do like the effort of trying to tie a previous faulty argument to this one under the assumption that it would help justify your faulty argument here. Nice work.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. I'll take that and run with it.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=96754:date=May 18 2010, 12:35 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 18 2010, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96752:date=May 18 2010, 01:33 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 18 2010, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I do like the effort of trying to tie a previous faulty argument to this one under the assumption that it would help justify your faulty argument here. Nice work.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks. I'll take that and run with it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Into a wall, like the rest of your ideas, I assume.

[rok]

Yet, on August 1 of last season when the Cubs were very much in the race and right before he ended up on the DL, Z was 7-4 with a 3.35 ERA. Who wanted to trade him then? Z is capable of A LOT more than some are giving him credit for, but it is still clear that he doesn't have the same trade value as he once did (due to injuries, overblown ineffectiveness, bad start to season, craziness, etc). Cutting him or selling low and paying a major portion of his salary at 29 and still in his prime is just wrong on so many levels IMO. I think we were spoiled by a few good seasons by Wood and Prior and have an unrealistic idea of what a typical #1 starter (I'm not talking about an elite SP) is supposed to be. I'm not even close to being ready to give up on Z and I hope the organization doesn't continue to mishandle the situation. Z hasn't helped his cause much lately either, but this the whole thing has been mismanaged from top to bottom for at least 2 seasons.

[Runnys]

That is the problem though Rok...Z is getting paid like an elite SP.....if Z was making 10-12 million a year I don't think nearly has many people would complain. But he is making the same money as the best pitchers in the game and Z isn't even the top 15 best pitchers in the game, he may not even by one of the top 15 in the NL.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=96768:date=May 18 2010, 01:43 PM:name=Runnys)-->QUOTE (Runnys @ May 18 2010, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That is the problem though Rok...Z is getting paid like an elite SP.....if Z was making 10-12 million a year I don't think nearly has many people would complain. But he is making the same money as the best pitchers in the game and Z isn't even the top 15 best pitchers in the game, he may not even by one of the top 15 in the NL.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he is paid, give or take 2-3 million, is not my concern. How we utilize him though, is my concern.

[Scarey]

<!--quoteo(post=96747:date=May 18 2010, 12:21 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 18 2010, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96741:date=May 18 2010, 01:14 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ May 18 2010, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96738:date=May 18 2010, 12:08 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 18 2010, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96735:date=May 18 2010, 01:01 PM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ May 18 2010, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96732:date=May 18 2010, 11:55 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ May 18 2010, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96731:date=May 18 2010, 12:52 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ May 18 2010, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->And?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And I was just noting that all of you called me crazy for wanting to rid ourselves of Z's contract. You argued that many teams would take it off our hands but it would be a mistake to do so. Now some of you are saying that nobody would take him off our hands without the Cubs eating a portion of his salary, which is exactly what I was saying then. That's all.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

This is an entirely different scenario compared to last year. However, I still argue personally that there are plenty of teams that would claim Zambrano off of waivers outright. He's still young and I think he has it in him to throw 200 innings at a sub 3.50 ERA. What exactly are your expectations for him if he would have stayed in the rotation all year?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you are correct we should trade Z for whatever we can get. Use the salary savings on an impact player for 2011.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The way they have handled Z at this point, I don't think they would get an impact player at all. That's the point. Plus, if I'm right it would be exremely hard to match the value of a player that can give you 200 innings and a 3.50 ERA for the next three years. I understand that the Cubs have a financial hole work around, but it's going to be extremely hard to fill. The only manageable way I see is to let some contracts expire. I forget what the figures were, but I believe we have something like 25 million coming off the books next year and something like 32 million in 2012. <b>The Cubs just need to make a conscious effort to utilize their money in a better way in the future.</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This has been my central argument for years. By releasing some of the bad contracts to other clubs we can accelerate this process. The problem is that JH is still in place and would probably just replace them with more bad ones.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Zambrano is not one of those bad contracts though. Is it a great deal for the Cubs? No. Is it overpaying slightly for a pitcher that has historically shown he's a top of the rotation pitcher and will be tied to the Cubs through his prime years? Yep.

As far as Hendry bunching up the Cubs payroll in the future, I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen for three reasons.

1. He may not even be the Cubs GM after this season.
2. If he was staying as the Cubs GM, I think the league as a whole has finally come to the conclusion that players 33 and older are losing affectiveness without the help of steroids. Maybe Hendry didn't get the memo, but league wide GMs have stopped making that mistake.
3. He finally has stable ownership and will not be pressured to make ridiculous short term solutions to improve the value of the team for an impending sale like the Tribune company did when Soriano, Lilly, and Marquis was signed and like Sam Zell when he had Fukudome and Bradley signed.

[Brock]

Muskrat:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Carlos Zambrano is headed back to the rotation. When, the Cubs don't know. But it won't be long.

"We'll put him back in his usual habitat and that's starting baseball games and we'll go from there," Cubs manager Lou Piniella said Tuesday. "I just don't know how long it'll take and I told Carlos to be honest with me and let me know when he's ready."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->"'Z' gave it a good shot," Cubs general manager Jim Hendry said. "I think when he went to the 'pen with the one inning type potential, I think we all thought that when somebody goes from starter to the 'pen, they pick up juice and you get the one inning, let's go blow it by people [approach]. We thought he was the right candidate for it."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->"It's no secret that for the last year, year and a half, he's not throwing as hard," Hendry said. "We thought [moving to the bullpen] might short-term pick up his velocity, too."<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

http://muskat.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/05...back_to_ro.html

[funkster]

It's about time they corrected this massive fuck up. This will definitely go down as one of the dumbest Cub moves.

[Mikey]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-c...ambranostarting

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Zambrano going back into Cubs’ rotation

CHICAGO (AP)—As for that Carlos Zambrano-to-the-bullpen experiment, the Chicago Cubs are saying: “Never mind.”

Having failed to fix the team’s eighth-inning relief woes or to improve his own performance during his three weeks in the bullpen, the $91.5 million right-hander is returning to the rotation.

“We took a chance that we needed to take,” manager Lou Piniella said before Tuesday night’s game against Colorado. “We thought his velocity would increase. It hasn’t. We’re going to stretch him out to get him back in the rotation, and we’ll see when he’s ready.”


Piniella said he’d like Zambrano to pitch two or three times in long relief before making the move. Though all five starters have pitched decently, <b>Tom Gorzelanny is the most likely to be sent to the bullpen to make room for Zambrano.</b>

“We’re not five games under .500 because we’ve had a bad rotation,” general manager Jim Hendry said.

Zambrano had 91 victories in his first six full seasons as a Cubs starter before winning only nine times last year. He came to camp this spring in his best shape ever but got rocked by Atlanta on opening day and was 1-2 with a 7.45 ERA in four starts.

The combination of Zambrano’s struggles, Ted Lilly’s(notes) return from the disabled list and the ineffectiveness of every pitcher Piniella employed as setup man to closer Carlos Marmol(notes) led the Cubs to move their one-time ace to the bullpen.

But Zambrano didn’t have very good command or velocity, rarely reaching 90 mph with his fastball. In his most recent outing, he gave up three runs in an inning against Pittsburgh. He had a 6.23 ERA in eight relief appearances, making a bad situation worse.

Zambrano, who turns 29 on June 1 and is signed through 2012, wasn’t thrilled about leaving the rotation in the first place. So he was excited to hear he was returning.

“I’m happy, man,” he said about becoming a starter again. “As long as the team’s happy, I’m happy. Whatever this team wants me to do, I do.”

Zambrano recently told Hendry he was having trouble getting loose quickly in the bullpen—a must for a short reliever. And the Cubs aren’t about to use a $91.5 million pitcher as a mopup man in one-sided games.

“No, no, no,” Piniella said. “We don’t need Zambrano or any pitcher of that quality in that role.”

Hendry said he hopes the break from the rotation will energize Zambrano and help him return to “the dominant Z” of a few years ago. At his best, Zambrano could throw 95 mph.

Meanwhile, the Cubs believe Sean Marshall has emerged as a viable setup man for Marmol.

“He’s flourished,” Piniella said. “He’s probably pitching as well as any left-hander in baseball out of the bullpen.”<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[jstraw]

Lou has taken to a sort of lackadaisical flailing.

[jstraw]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Hendry said he hopes the break from the rotation will energize Zambrano and help him return to “the dominant Z” of a few years ago. At his best, Zambrano could throw 95 mph.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What a load of bullshit.

[veryzer]

This organization never ceases to amaze me.

[dk123]

<!--quoteo(post=96817:date=May 18 2010, 07:33 PM:name=jstraw)-->QUOTE (jstraw @ May 18 2010, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Hendry said he hopes the break from the rotation will energize Zambrano and help him return to “the dominant Z” of a few years ago. At his best, Zambrano could throw 95 mph.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What a load of bullshit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm not sure that I think the Cubs goal with Z should be to worry too much about velocity. I feel like his problems stem from inconsistency in how he delivers pitches, as well as some of the well documented psychological problems where he loses focus when things don't go his way. It seems like he would be better served by working on command and consistency...learning to pitch better...rather than worry about a few MPH, unless he's injured, in which case he shouldn't be pitching at all. I still think this bullpen stint was a colossal mistake made by desperate management way too early in the season. If he's having problems, better to let him have a couple weeks off and work on things rather than change his role and fuck with his head, and possibly his body as well. If they were in this situation with a different pitcher, sure, it could have been a good move, but I just don't see how they ever thought it was a good idea in this situation. It makes me wonder about their judgment.

[rok]

<!--quoteo(post=96827:date=May 18 2010, 07:46 PM:name=dk123)-->QUOTE (dk123 @ May 18 2010, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=96817:date=May 18 2010, 07:33 PM:name=jstraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ May 18 2010, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Hendry said he hopes the break from the rotation will energize Zambrano and help him return to “the dominant Z” of a few years ago. At his best, Zambrano could throw 95 mph.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What a load of bullshit.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I'm not sure that I think the Cubs goal with Z should be to worry too much about velocity. I feel like his problems stem from inconsistency in how he delivers pitches, as well as some of the well documented psychological problems where he loses focus when things don't go his way. It seems like he would be better served by working on command and consistency...learning to pitch better...rather than worry about a few MPH, unless he's injured, in which case he shouldn't be pitching at all. I still think this bullpen stint was a colossal mistake made by desperate management way too early in the season. If he's having problems, better to let him have a couple weeks off and work on things rather than change his role and fuck with his head, and possibly his body as well. If they were in this situation with a different pitcher, sure, it could have been a good move, but I just don't see how they ever thought it was a good idea in this situation. It makes me wonder about their judgment.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
100% this.

And I'm guessing that Gorzelanny gets traded. He doesn't fit in the pen. Maybe we can get a half-way decent RH relief pitcher in return.