Just Wondering...

[Destined]

Why is it that Juan Pierre is out of favour by a lot of SOI posters? I was just looking through the old thread about JP's signing prior to 2006, and it was full of "Fuck yeahs!" and a ton of excitement. What happened? Besides 2006 being a terrible year in general, I enjoyed having Pierre in center and we got exactly what we thought we would with him.

Maybe my memory is off?

[jeffy]

Here's one take on him as a Cub.

[Fella]

Pierre had an awful first half and by the time he turned things around most cubs fans were done with the season and we were like 206 games out of first place. I think a lot of people also realized how overrated he was at the time. People were stoked about speed and how he could "fuck with the pitchers head" when the trade was made. Also Cubs fans seemed to be desperate for a "true leadoff hitter", in the years around 03 to 05. After watching him all year I think people found out he is pretty much a 5th outfielder.

[Destined]

<!--quoteo(post=94351:date=May 3 2010, 01:10 AM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ May 3 2010, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Pierre had an awful first half and by the time he turned things around most cubs fans were done with the season and we were like 206 games out of first place. I think a lot of people also realized how overrated he was at the time. People were stoked about speed and how he could "fuck with the pitchers head" when the trade was made. Also Cubs fans seemed to be desperate for a "true leadoff hitter", in the years around 03 to 05. After watching him all year I think people found out he is pretty much a 5th outfielder.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh, I can understand that.

I remember the arm being weaker than weak, but I always thought he was OK leading off. That makes sense though about getting exciting over getting a true leadoff man, because Lofton was kind of the teaser in showing what an established leadoff man could do.

[Ace]

Ricky Nolasco isn't doing much to help.

[mindbodyspirit]

<!--quoteo(post=94344:date=May 3 2010, 02:09 AM:name=Destined)-->QUOTE (Destined @ May 3 2010, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Why is it that Juan Pierre is out of favour by a lot of SOI posters? I was just looking through the old thread about JP's signing prior to 2006, and it was full of "Fuck yeahs!" and a ton of excitement. What happened? Besides 2006 being a terrible year in general, I enjoyed having Pierre in center and we got exactly what we thought we would with him.

Maybe my memory is off?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The Pierre trade was one of desperation for the team. The only other lead-off choice was giving Johnny Damon $13M a year/3 years to play worse defense and throw worse than half of the hog dog vendors at Wrigley. The Pierre trade didn't garner favor because he didn't hit much at all for the first 2 1/2 months of 2006... and he got thrown out trying to steal WAYYY too much. He also had a lot less defensive prowess than we expected from someone so fast on the bases. All in all, it was a bad trade... but our better option (we could not DH Damon like the Yankees could).

Also, we didn't "sign" Pierre, we traded Nolasco/Mitre/Pinto to the Marlins for the 1-year rental.

Anyone see how JP's been stinking it up on the South Side this year? I imagine the White Sox and their knuckle-dragging fans are finding out the hard way that a singles hitter with streaky .OBP in the lead-off spot is a very good way to lose often.

[veryzer]

The original plan was to sign Pierre and the shortstop whose name is escaping me. The one who ended up signing with the Dodgers. They were supposed to be the 1-2 pinch the cubs were missing since Dernier/Sandberg. Once McFail fucked that deal up (and it was Mcfail, not Hendry). we were stuck with just Pierre. He go off to a terrible start, and all Cub fans being racists, it didn't sit well.

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=94357:date=May 3 2010, 07:58 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ May 3 2010, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The original plan was to sign Pierre and the shortstop whose name is escaping me. The one who ended up signing with the Dodgers. They were supposed to be the 1-2 pinch the cubs were missing since Dernier/Sandberg. Once McFail fucked that deal up (and it was Mcfail, not Hendry). we were stuck with just Pierre. He go off to a terrible start, and all Cub fans being racists, it didn't sit well.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Furcal

[1060Ivy]

<!--quoteo(post=94357:date=May 3 2010, 06:58 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ May 3 2010, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The original plan was to sign Pierre and the shortstop whose name is escaping me. The one who ended up signing with the Dodgers. They were supposed to be the 1-2 pinch the cubs were missing since Dernier/Sandberg. Once McFail fucked that deal up (and it was Mcfail, not Hendry). we were stuck with just Pierre. He go off to a terrible start, and all Cub fans being racists, it didn't sit well.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The only nuance that I would insert was the Pierre trade was an act of desperation by the Cubs after Furcal signed with the Dodgers.

Marlins could sense that Cubs wanted to make the move badly. Cubs gave up too much to get Pierre and he underperformed in the early part of the season.

[Butcher]

I could write a novel on this subject, but I won't. I'll just say that he sucks and post this:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Vl0dqWhzU6k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Vl0dqWhzU6k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[vegascub]

<!--quoteo(post=94386:date=May 3 2010, 09:25 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ May 3 2010, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I could write a novel on this subject, but I won't. I'll just say that he sucks and post this:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Vl0dqWhzU6k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Vl0dqWhzU6k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->


I knew it was bad, but I had to listen to it again to refresh my memory. I wish I hadn't. It just doesn't get much worse than that.

[kbwsb]

Pierre is a guy who was born at the wrong time.

Had he played at any time from 1947 to the '90's, he would have been revered as a speedy guy who "will hit .300 every now and then, and can put up 200 hits in his sleep. Plus, he's a gamer...never misses a start."

Nowadays, we look at other things; the large number of hits is a result of playing every game and leading off, and never walking. Thus, he leads the league in OUTS nearly every year he plays. Stolen bases aren't nearly as valuable as once perceived, especially when you're getting caught stealing at a solid clip.

And to have no power (in his case, zero), used to be perfectly acceptable for a leadoff guy ("hey, he's a table-stter"), until it dawned on people that, oh, you mean if the leadoff guy homers, it actually counts? Pierre has zero power.

Did I mention that he's probably the best bunter in the majors? At one time (especially if he played for Don Baylor) this was thought to be a big deal. Now, it's thought to be like having a really good dial-up internet connection.

I actually liked Pierre more than most Cub fans. I loved his effort. I liked the fact that in 162 games in CF, he didn't make a single error. But if you're trying to actually "win ballgames," he isn't the best choice. Thus, I'm glad that kW and Ozzie think he has value.

[mindbodyspirit]

<!--quoteo(post=94440:date=May 3 2010, 03:23 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ May 3 2010, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Pierre is a guy who was born at the wrong time.

Had he played at any time from 1947 to the '90's, he would have been revered as a speedy guy who "will hit .300 every now and then, and can put up 200 hits in his sleep. Plus, he's a gamer...never misses a start."

Nowadays, we look at other things; the large number of hits is a result of playing every game and leading off, and never walking. Thus, he leads the league in OUTS nearly every year he plays. Stolen bases aren't nearly as valuable as once perceived, especially when you're getting caught stealing at a solid clip.

And to have no power (in his case, zero), used to be perfectly acceptable for a leadoff guy ("hey, he's a table-stter"), until it dawned on people that, oh, you mean if the leadoff guy homers, it actually counts? Pierre has zero power.

Did I mention that he's probably the best bunter in the majors? At one time (especially if he played for Don Baylor) this was thought to be a big deal. Now, it's thought to be like having a really good dial-up internet connection.

I actually liked Pierre more than most Cub fans. I loved his effort. I liked the fact that in 162 games in CF, he didn't make a single error. But if you're trying to actually "win ballgames," he isn't the best choice. Thus, I'm glad that kW and Ozzie think he has value.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I think the whole notion of the "gamer" type is still valid, but the skills to make a player a "gamer" aren't particularly valued (or learned much anymore). I would also add that in the past, players that were valued in that mold--Brett Butler is the best example that comes to mind--had more than one skill to show off. Butler was a guy who'd steal 30-50 bases a year, but he'd also get 30-40 extra-base hits, walk 60-90 times a year (over 100 once), kept an .OBP around .380, bunt for 20+ hits a year, and he was defensively he was solid with OF assists (throwing arm) and range.

If Pierre could throw well, if he could learn to own the strike zone, or if he could learn to drive the ball to the gaps (he's had as many as 48 extra base hits once--as a Cub), and if he could learn to be more selective as a base stealer, he'd get the league-wide respect that Butler had... I don't think anyone would argue that Brett Butler wouldn't get the same respect today. Pierre doesn't get it because a 1-tool player is never really respected~ and Cust and Blaylock are in AAA to attest to it (HR or nothing, defensively irrelevant... 1 tool).

[veryzer]

Guys that can consistently bunt for hits have value, there just aren't any players like that anymore.

[Coach]

Pierre was a good player.
He wasn't the superstar that we were looking for though.