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<!--quoteo(post=73320:date=Dec 29 2009, 07:06 PM:name=Ace)-->QUOTE (Ace @ Dec 29 2009, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If Zambrano is just an average number 2, there are at least 30 better starting pitchers in MLB. I'd like to know who they are.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"average #2" is a very subjective term. In 8 years, CZ has 1 year with more than 16 wins. He has 4 straight years trending worse in nearly every statistical category. Are there 30 guys better than him? I doubt it. But for a team who's goal is not to just be an average team, having a dominant #1 is very important. His inconsistency definitely prohibits him from being that. So is he a "weak #1", a "good #2", an "average #2" or whatever? Who knows? None of those title mean anything. His last 2 years averages about 180 IP, a 3.85 ERA, a 1.35 WHIP, a .245 opp avg, 140K and about a dozen wins. Put whatever label you want on him...
Let me add that his upside, if he ever puts it all together for an extended period of time, is CLEARLY #1 stuff. The question is will he ever do so...
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
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<!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
"I'm not sure I know what ball cheese or crotch rot is, exactly -- or if there is a difference between the two. Don't post photos, please..."
- Butcher
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<!--quoteo(post=73368:date=Dec 30 2009, 12:10 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Dec 30 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd put Ted Lilly ahead of him.
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<!--quoteo(post=73368:date=Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only important part of my statement was the 2nd sentence.
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<!--quoteo(post=73385:date=Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73368:date=Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only important part of my statement was the 2nd sentence.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guarantee you PCB thinks the best pitcher in Chicago is on the White Sox, and you know how much PCB hates it when you diss the White Sox.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=73408:date=Dec 30 2009, 02:59 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 30 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73385:date=Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73368:date=Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only important part of my statement was the 2nd sentence.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guarantee you PCB thinks the best pitcher in Chicago is on the White Sox, and you know how much PCB hates it when you diss the White Sox.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last year, Lilly and Randy Wells had clearly superior seasons to anyone on the White Sox staff. Danks, who had a similar year to Dempster, was the best Sox pitcher, unless you want to give extra credit to Hillbilly for his perfect game.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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Lilly was better than Zambrano last year, but if you're asking me which one I'd pick to start my team if I could only have one, I'd take Zambrano every time.
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<!--quoteo(post=73412:date=Dec 30 2009, 03:13 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 30 2009, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73408:date=Dec 30 2009, 02:59 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 30 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73385:date=Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73368:date=Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only important part of my statement was the 2nd sentence.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guarantee you PCB thinks the best pitcher in Chicago is on the White Sox, and you know how much PCB hates it when you diss the White Sox.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last year, Lilly and Randy Wells had clearly superior seasons to anyone on the White Sox staff. Danks, who had a similar year to Dempster, was the best Sox pitcher, unless you want to give extra credit to Hillbilly for his perfect game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When healthy, Peavy is probably the best pitcher in the city, and yes, it hurts me to say it. Now, whether he fully adjusts to the AL or is able to remain healthy are big IFs in my opinion. I personally think both Danks and Floyd have topped out development wise, but I'm biased given my allegiances, and am just guessing. Fuck Buehrle.
Anyway, the only pitcher currently on the Cubs who hasn't realized his full potential is Z. I think everyone else on our staff has already met or exceeded expectations, so I'm not optimistic past the next 1-2 seasons with our current rotation, unless of course someone develops quickly out of our farm system and surprises all of us soon.
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<!--quoteo(post=73417:date=Dec 30 2009, 03:32 PM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Dec 30 2009, 03:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73412:date=Dec 30 2009, 03:13 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 30 2009, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73408:date=Dec 30 2009, 02:59 PM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 30 2009, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73385:date=Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 12:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73368:date=Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM:name=PcB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PcB @ Dec 30 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=73335:date=Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Dec 30 2009, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Put whatever label you want on him<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->He's the best pitcher in Chicago. Now fuck yourself.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->The only important part of my statement was the 2nd sentence.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I guarantee you PCB thinks the best pitcher in Chicago is on the White Sox, and you know how much PCB hates it when you diss the White Sox.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last year, Lilly and Randy Wells had clearly superior seasons to anyone on the White Sox staff. Danks, who had a similar year to Dempster, was the best Sox pitcher, unless you want to give extra credit to Hillbilly for his perfect game.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When healthy, Peavy is probably the best pitcher in the city, and yes, it hurts me to say it. Now, whether he fully adjusts to the AL or is able to remain healthy are big IFs in my opinion. I personally think both Danks and Floyd have topped out development wise, but I'm biased given my allegiances, and am just guessing. Fuck Buehrle.
Anyway, the only pitcher currently on the Cubs who hasn't realized his full potential is Z. I think everyone else on our staff has already met or exceeded expectations, so I'm not optimistic past the next 1-2 seasons with our current rotation, unless of course someone develops quickly out of our farm system and surprises all of us soon.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So hard to say.... I think there are 3 guys who are somewhere that you'd call the either #1 or #2s depending on how they throw. Z has the most potential to be a star. Buehrle has the least likelihood of blowing up. Peavy is the wildcard - depending on his health and his adjustment to the AL (and AL hitters adjustment to him) and from a pitcher friendly park to a hitter friendly park.
I have no problem with a rational arguement that Zambrano has the highest upside of the 3. I also can easily make the arguement that he is the one most likely to underperform (even his own) expectations - a Cy Young type year.
The two rotations are both very good. We are lucky right now to have two rotations stacked from top to bottom and not with a bunch of ?. (Who's the Cubs 5th? Gorzelanny/Marshall/Samardzija?) In my life, these are the best 2 staffs at the same time.
Stacking the 10 starters is a very subjective excercise.
I'd say Group A is Z, Lilly, Peavy and Buehrle
Group B is Dempster, Wells, Floyd and Danks
Group C is the 5th starters - Garcia and Gorz/Marsh/Samardzija.
Inside those groups, it is hard to rank em.
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The Cubs staff is suspect in my opinion.
Wang.
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Sox bias? From Cherp? Shocking.
ERA+ in Dempster's 2 years as a starter:
2008...155
2009...123
and for Mark Hillbilly
2008...121
2009...121
If you want to go back further, Hillbilly put up a good 129 in '07, and an execrable 95 in '06. He's never had as good a year as Dempster's '08 season.
So kindly switch their "Group A and Group B" placings.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=73431:date=Dec 30 2009, 04:37 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 30 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Cubs staff is suspect in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Highly suspect.
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<!--quoteo(post=73432:date=Dec 30 2009, 04:37 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Dec 30 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Sox bias? From Cherp? Shocking.
ERA+ in Dempster's 2 years as a starter:
2008...155
2009...123
and for Mark Hillbilly
2008...121
2009...121
If you want to go back further, Hillbilly put up a good 129 in '07, and an execrable 95 in '06. He's never had as good a year as Dempster's '08 season.
So kindly switch their "Group A and Group B" placings.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LMAO...
Buehrle has gone 10 years in a row with 200+ IP and all but one year was under a 4.14 ERA in a hitters park in the AL. You take Dempster.
Using your weak-ass illustration, where is Carlos? Worse than both Mark and Ryan, huih? You are really good at pulling one number out of context. Do people put up with this silly crap all the time from you in real life? I don't believe anyone buys it here
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<!--quoteo(post=73431:date=Dec 30 2009, 04:37 PM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Dec 30 2009, 04:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The Cubs staff is suspect in my opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Still likely to be top 3 in the NL, right?
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