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MW4 · 08-28-2009, 06:45 PM

You know the bottom line is that as CUB FANS we should back our players AT ALL TIMES.
Instead we act like the prick Philly fans booing Santa.

I'm kind of with Milty on this, unless a player is blatently dogging it we shouldn't boo.

Anyone else remember the first 50 or so At Bats of Ryno's career?
What if we boo'd the shit out of him?
Instead what I distinctly remember is rooting for him even harder, because he was a Cub, and I was a Cub Fan.

These guys need our 24/7 support, not 24/7 criticism.

***jstraw*** · 08-28-2009, 07:16 PM

QUOTE (MW4 @ Aug 28 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You know the bottom line is that as CUB FANS we should back our players AT ALL TIMES.

Bullshit.

veryzer · 08-28-2009, 08:44 PM

QUOTE (jstraw @ Aug 28 2009, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MW4 @ Aug 28 2009, 05:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>You know the bottom line is that as CUB FANS we should back our players AT ALL TIMES.

Bullshit.
</div>

exactly.

offcolorpoetry · 08-29-2009, 12:58 PM

Yeah, I think what's really bothering Milton now is that he is hitting like he was brought in to do and yet fans are still booing him. I wish he would just keep his damn mouth shut instead of making things worse, but he isn't entirely wrong about the fans.

Scarey · 08-29-2009, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 28 2009, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Aug 28 2009, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 28 2009, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Aug 28 2009, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Let me draw an analogy. I live in Topeka, Kansas. This means I have a certain familiarity with the Reverend Fred Phelps, the so-called "Westboro Baptist Church," their motives and their methods.

If you're not familiar with this kook, use the Google. He's a hateful nutjob who thrives on attention and he's discovered that by pushing people's buttons he can tap into an endless supply. He's a genius at this. He has one primary message...that America's tolerance of homosexuals is the reason for everything bad that happens...in the form of God's punishment...which we richly deserve and of which he approves.

So he runs around picketing public events...it used to be the funerals of famous gay people or to celebrate things like Matthew Shepard's murder. That got to be old news and when only the core activist community and those personally offended could be bothered to show up and be angry at him, he realized that gimmick was becoming played out. He stumbled onto a much better tactic. Picket the funerals of fallen soldiers...the logic goes like this: The country is being punished by god for it's tolerance of gay people. That's why your son or daughter died over there.

Talk about a hot button. It's brilliant. It was the specific cause for the formation of the Patriot Guard...now everywhere he goes, he's a photo-op again. He smiles, holding his hateful signs and big burly bikers with huge American flags (people that would never lift a finger to offer emotional support at the death of an AIDS victim) show up in force. I don't know why people would care what some nut says is the reason their loved one was paying a toll for our nation to God but hay, that's just me.

Bear with me, I'm getting to my analogy.

They picket anywhere they can get press. They picketed some nominally Jewish events and one of their signs reminds us that "The Jews Killed Christ" or some-such. Now in the sea of polemic they spew this is one little sign amongst many and frankly, it's off-message. It exists because that hot-button won't be ignored...it's just one more sign and there's always another grandkid to tote one more sign.

The reaction to this from the Anti-Defamation League is that the guy is a anti-semetic threat. They focus on this one provocative expression among many to decide that's what these people are all about...they're anti-semetic. They focus on that to the exclusion of all other information about the Phelpses.

It's crap.

So back to Milton...all this shit is swirling around him and his season in Chicago. Maybe ALL of the swirling shit is misguided and wrong...that's not the point. Somebody that wants to hurt Bradley yells "watermelon" or whatever. Maybe that person IS a racist and maybe he isn't. That's not the point either.

The point is that this is all it takes for anyone who wants to, including Milton to make this <i>all about </i>racism...for them to say what's going down is because Milton is black and the problem is racism.

It's horseshit.

straw nailed it too!

face it, bradley thinks everyone who speaks out against him is racist. it's easy. he doesn't have to take responsibility for his actions that way. jeff kent? racist. umpires? racist. fans? racist. broadcasters? racist. the kkk? racist.
</div>

This is what is really confusing me... what actions is he not taking responsibility for with the fans? His suckiness? He has already told the media and fans that he's played like shit and will work to improve... and he did! Since the all-star break, he has hit .277/.400/.437 in the second half this season. He absolutely owned up to it and improved himself.

Why would he play the race card just to avoid taking responsibility for his actions when he has been playing much better lately? That part of the equation just doesn't make sense to me.
</div>

scarey, people are booing bradley. they've been booing him all year. they aren't booing him becuase he's black. they aren't booing him because he's surley. they aren't booing him because they didn't like the signing like they did with jones. they're booing him because for 4 months, he was terrible. that's what he doesn't seem to get. that's where the lack of responsibility for his actions come in.

if he would have said this:

reporter: milton, the fans are really letting you have it. how does that make you feel?

bradley: i don't like it but i understand it. i haven't played well, i'm making a lot of money, and expectations are high. i don't like being booed, but i know that if i start hitting and the teams starts winning, the boo's will go away.

instead we get:

reporter: milton, the fans are really letting you have it. how does that make you feel?

bradley: well there's a lot of hatred in the bleachers. waiter's pick on me at restaurants. i can't wait to get out of wrigley because i don't feel comfortable because of racists out there. and blah blah blah.

see where the whole "doesn't take responsibilty" comes form?
</div>

As I said, he did take responsibility. Read Jeffy's post. I agree that he hasn't handled this "hate" thing very well, but he's not trying to weasel his way out of people realizing he's sucked. He owned up to it and said he understood it. I think it's just at the point where he's worked his ass off to straighten his game out and people were still booing him relentlessly for no fucking reason. Unfortunately, he now has given them a reason.

Bottom line is, there's no way he's 'not taking responsibility for his actions'.

Scarey · 08-29-2009, 03:59 PM

Also, just to clear a few things up:

1. I never said fans weren't booing Bradley cause he sucked. I do think certain ignorant individuals will use racial slurs because the player has played badly, but I would never even pretend that anyone is booing Bradley cause he's black.

2. He hasn't sucked for 4 months. His OPS through April was .627. He then hit .787 in May which isn't fantastic but isn't mediocre either. ARam has hit .790 in the month of August and I can bet you nobody even realized it. Bradley than hit a mediocre .725 in June and went on to hit .878 and .894 in July and August respectively.

So, he sucked for 1 month, was decent, mediocre, and really good two consecutive months coming into boo-gate. While he deserved the boos in April, it's just unnecessary in August.

offcolorpoetry · 08-29-2009, 06:25 PM

And he's red hot in this series against the Mets.

Clapp · 08-29-2009, 06:39 PM

Here's a great post from Fangraphs about Bradley... and Soriano: Link

QUOTE In just over 400 plate appearances, he’s been worth +1.2 wins to the Cubs, which translates to $5.4 million in salary. Factor in his expected September production, and he’ll probably end the year with a performance worth around $7 million – less than what the Cubs are paying him, but not anything close to the biggest disaster on the team.

Alfonso Soriano has performed below replacement this year. He earned – sorry, was paid – $16 million this year, and there’s $90 million left on the final five years of his contract. His performance suggests he owes the Cubs $3.3 million for taking 0.7 wins off their total for 2009, so Soriano has cost the Cubs almost $20 million this year. Brasodley could cuss out every fan in Wrigley and still not match Soriano for disastrous results this year.

Actually, Bradley's only making $5 million this year, well like $6 million something when you factor in the signing bonus. And that post was written before he got 3 more hits again so far today. He's getting on base, and Lee and Aramis are driving him in.

Coming into today, Bradley was hitting .328 with a .982 OPS in the #2 spot. He's currently hitting .327 with a .980 OPS at home too.

Again, I don't give a flying fuck what the players say, who they're playing for, any of that crap. Just go out there and produce, that's what I judge them on. Bradley didn't produce most of the year, but he's been maybe our best hitter the last couple months. I'm a fan and I'll be furious if we get rid of him.

Clapp · 08-29-2009, 06:47 PM

And now he walks. On base 8 times the last 2 games.

VanSlawAndCottoCheese · 08-29-2009, 07:28 PM

QUOTE (Gracie @ Aug 29 2009, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah, I think what's really bothering Milton now is that he is hitting like he was brought in to do and yet fans are still booing him. I wish he would just keep his damn mouth shut instead of making things worse, but he isn't entirely wrong about the fans.
I've been hanging on the sidelines about this as I avoid most of the media reports on the cubs that have little to do with transactions and game decisions. It's fairly easy to do, being in Columbus and all.

Of course, I've always been quick to correct the myth that Sox fans cling to as if it were heroin-laced flypaper: that Cubs fans aren't very knowledgeable and that they are not aware of what's going on in the games they attend. It has long stood as a palliative for deep-seated inferiority complexes that may or may not cut along north and south lines (as a Cub fan originally from the south suburbs, I had my share of accusations of treason, but that's neither here nor there). I recall Sox fans touting the Cubs fans' novel appreciation for Augie Ojeda as proof positive of their lack of baseball acumen, as if they couldn't possibly conceive of rooting for the underdog when--at the time--there wasn't a ton of other things to root for.

However, this recent trend of just heaping the boos on individual players has troubled me. It's really only been a phenomenon since 2003, I believe, as some fans have translated the frustration of a century of mostly futility--and it's emblematic moment in game six of the 2003 NL Championship Series--as entitlement to be instantaneously petulant toward those who underperform, those who error, those who in some way dissatisfy during gameplay. I'm not saying that in most cases the feelings that prompt the booing are errant; however, I do find the expression of the feelings tough shit jerky to chew. The booing wasn't going to prevent Hawkins from blowing another save; in fact, it was more likely that it would unnerve him or cause him to to not care as much the next time out at home.

There's nothing wrong with thinking that a guy's a bum. It is, in fact, a long-standing baseball tradition to vent on the guys not picking up the slack. With talk radio, blogs, message boards like these, harping on our bums is easier than ever. But that's not what I hear happening when fans heap on the boos on the players mentioned in this thread. What I hear is longtime frustration finding this year's (or, in some cases, month's) scapegoat. Fuck Howry's successful campaigns in 2006 and 2007. It was <b>his</b> fault whenever we lost one of 64 games in 2008. <b>BOOO!</b> [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/furious.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/finger.gif[/img] Of course as pointed out earlier, sometimes the booing flies in the face of logic, as Bradley has been a valuable player since the All-Star break. At 31 years of age, he goddamned assented to take hitting instruction from Pinella, someone who exceeded Bradley's lifetime OPS in only one of his eighteen seasons. But fuck it-- another season's lost; we gotta boo someone.

As an aside, do fans who boo think that it will affect player performance? Unlikely, but if at all, more likely in a bad way. Managerial decisions? I'm sure Lou needs our help recognizing who is performing or not. GM decisions? Nice try. You've already lost your voice by buying a ticket to the game. Boos and cheers alike sound like the ringing of the cash register, although maybe even more people will order a second hot dog, eating out of depression and anger . . .

Seriously, and back to the Bradley situation, I haven't read the article in which he claims that he has been the target of racist remarks. Still, judging from this thread, I'm inclined to agree with most of you that if he is being truthful about the remarks, they are probably isolated<b>,</b> and <b>he </b>is probably using this as a shield for his down year. So I see both Bradley and the group of booing Cubs fans as looking for some excuse to help them assuage a bad season. (And, of course, there is a nudging assist from the sports journalists, who love, LOVE, <b>LOVE</b> narratives of players fighting with a fan base, as it makes for salacious articles/broadcasts/circle jerks.) Racism's Bradley's excuse. Bradley's ours. Whatever makes all of us feel better about ourselves so we won't feel so hypocritical when we swing at a slider in the dirt or sign up for a new package of season tickets.

I do retain hope, however, judging from the cheering at routine fly ball/bowing incident that we all can work through our (this is not in reference to anyone here) own inferiority complexes.

***jstraw*** · 08-29-2009, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Aug 29 2009, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gracie @ Aug 29 2009, 12:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Yeah, I think what's really bothering Milton now is that he is hitting like he was brought in to do and yet fans are still booing him. I wish he would just keep his damn mouth shut instead of making things worse, but he isn't entirely wrong about the fans.
I've been hanging on the sidelines about this as I avoid most of the media reports on the cubs that have little to do with transactions and game decisions. It's fairly easy to do, being in Columbus and all.

Of course, I've always been quick to correct the myth that Sox fans cling to as if it were heroin-laced flypaper: that Cubs fans aren't very knowledgeable and that they are not aware of what's going on in the games they attend. It has long stood as a palliative for deep-seated inferiority complexes that may or may not cut along north and south lines (as a Cub fan originally from the south suburbs, I had my share of accusations of treason, but that's neither here nor there). I recall Sox fans touting the Cubs fans' novel appreciation for Augie Ojeda as proof positive of their lack of baseball acumen, as if they couldn't possibly conceive of rooting for the underdog when--at the time--there wasn't a ton of other things to root for.

However, this recent trend of just heaping the boos on individual players has troubled me. It's really only been a phenomenon since 2003, I believe, as some fans have translated the frustration of a century of mostly futility--and it's emblematic moment in game six of the 2003 NL Championship Series--as entitlement to be instantaneously petulant toward those who underperform, those who error, those who in some way dissatisfy during gameplay. I'm not saying that in most cases the feelings that prompt the booing are errant; however, I do find the expression of the feelings tough shit jerky to chew. The booing wasn't going to prevent Hawkins from blowing another save; in fact, it was more likely that it would unnerve him or cause him to to not care as much the next time out at home.

There's nothing wrong with thinking that a guy's a bum. It is, in fact, a long-standing baseball tradition to vent on the guys not picking up the slack. With talk radio, blogs, message boards like these, harping on our bums is easier than ever. But that's not what I hear happening when fans heap on the boos on the players mentioned in this thread. What I hear is longtime frustration finding this year's (or, in some cases, month's) scapegoat. Fuck Howry's successful campaigns in 2006 and 2007. It was <b>his</b> fault whenever we lost one of 64 games in 2008. <b>BOOO!</b> [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/furious.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/finger.gif[/img] Of course as pointed out earlier, sometimes the booing flies in the face of logic, as Bradley has been a valuable player since the All-Star break. At 31 years of age, he goddamned assented to take hitting instruction from Pinella, someone who exceeded Bradley's lifetime OPS in only one of his eighteen seasons. But fuck it-- another season's lost; we gotta boo someone.

As an aside, do fans who boo think that it will affect player performance? Unlikely, but if at all, more likely in a bad way. Managerial decisions? I'm sure Lou needs our help recognizing who is performing or not. GM decisions? Nice try. You've already lost your voice by buying a ticket to the game. Boos and cheers alike sound like the ringing of the cash register, although maybe even more people will order a second hot dog, eating out of depression and anger . . .

Seriously, and back to the Bradley situation, I haven't read the article in which he claims that he has been the target of racist remarks. Still, judging from this thread, I'm inclined to agree with most of you that if he is being truthful about the remarks, they are probably isolated and is probably using this as a shield for his down year. So I see both Bradley and the group of booing Cubs fans as looking for some excuse to help them assuage a bad season. (And, of course, there is a nudging assist from the sports journalists, who love, LOVE, <b>LOVE</b> narratives of players fighting with a fan base, as it makes for salacious articles/broadcasts/circle jerks.) Racism's Bradley's excuse. Bradley's ours. Whatever makes all of us feel better about ourselves so we won't feel so hypocritical when we swing at a slider in the dirt or sign up for a new package of season tickets.

I do retain hope, however, judging from the cheering at routine fly ball/ bowing incident that we all can work through our (this is not in reference to anyone here) own inferiority complexes.
</div>

Great post.

Though I think the connection between Lou's hitting stats and his qualifications for coaching Bradley's hitting is fallacious.

offcolorpoetry · 08-29-2009, 11:05 PM

I want to keep Milton.

He’s go the best hitting eye on the team and is an OBP machine. He’s great at driving the ball to the gap and plays solid defense for the most part. He’s one of the league’s best switch hitters. He can hit for power.

His skill set is very useful, and I think that this whole year (this week in particular) has taught him a lot about how to handle things. If he can learn to not to give the media so much to work with and be less uptight around the fans (like when he bowed after catching that fly ball), I think that things will cool down and he can be a popular and productive member of this team.

***jstraw*** · 08-29-2009, 11:20 PM

QUOTE (Gracie @ Aug 29 2009, 10:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>He’s one of the league’s best switch hitters.

Ok then.

VanSlawAndCottoCheese · 08-30-2009, 12:46 PM

QUOTE (jstraw @ Aug 29 2009, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Great post.

Though I think the connection between Lou's hitting stats and his qualifications for coaching Bradley's hitting is fallacious.
Thanks. I've really enjoyed your thoughts here. The very debate is interesting, and many people have made some thoughtful arguments here. It's stuff like this that makes me thankful that these guys opened <i>SOI</i> up to the public so schmoes like us could get a crack at it.

Yeah, I'm aware that throwing the hitting stats up for a coach is a gummy area, although I do really wonder what a 31-year-old vet with strong numbers can learn from someone who wasn't nearly as successful in the bigs. Fundamentals? That seems either learned or besides the point at this juncture. I'm sure this is my lack of knowledge of what it means to actually hit at the major-league level showing here.

However, my point was less about my belief in Lou's ability to teach Bradley a thing or two and more about the notion that if this guy was really so antagonistic about being a team player, wouldn't he adopt an attitude similar to what I wrote?

And maybe it's the Rhetoric/Composition teacher in me, but any post containing

QUOTE Bear with me, I'm getting to my analogy.

promises to be well worth the read. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

***jstraw*** · 08-30-2009, 09:12 PM

QUOTE (VanSlawAndCottoCheese @ Aug 30 2009, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jstraw @ Aug 29 2009, 10:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>Great post.

Though I think the connection between Lou's hitting stats and his qualifications for coaching Bradley's hitting is fallacious.
Thanks. I've really enjoyed your thoughts here. The very debate is interesting, and many people have made some thoughtful arguments here. It's stuff like this that makes me thankful that these guys opened <i>SOI</i> up to the public so schmoes like us could get a crack at it.

Yeah, I'm aware that throwing the hitting stats up for a coach is a gummy area, although I do really wonder what a 31-year-old vet with strong numbers can learn from someone who wasn't nearly as successful in the bigs. Fundamentals? That seems either learned or besides the point at this juncture. I'm sure this is my lack of knowledge of what it means to actually hit at the major-league level showing here.

However, my point was less about my belief in Lou's ability to teach Bradley a thing or two and more about the notion that if this guy was really so antagonistic about being a team player, wouldn't he adopt an attitude similar to what I wrote?

And maybe it's the Rhetoric/Composition teacher in me, but any post containing

QUOTE Bear with me, I'm getting to my analogy.

promises to be well worth the read. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]
</div>

Thanks...but shut up before someone tells us to get a room.

Most great coaches and managers are/were far better coaches and managers than they were players. There's a reason Charlie Lau never flirted with hitting .400 but George Brett did. The skill sets have limited overlap.

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