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<!--quoteo(post=60300:date=Aug 27 2009, 08:06 AM:name=Kid)-->QUOTE (Kid @ Aug 27 2009, 08:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Exactly how many players need to say that they are hearing racist taunts from fans at Wrigley before we stop saying "that player needs to shut up and grow a set" and start saying "there seems to be a real problem?"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't disagree with you on that part (though I still find it incredibly hard to believe there are racist taunts going on so loud that the players can hear yet no one around the taunter kicks his ass or gets him thrown out), but he's talking about a lot more than that.
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<!--quoteo(post=60300:date=Aug 27 2009, 07:06 AM:name=Kid)-->QUOTE (Kid @ Aug 27 2009, 07:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Exactly how many players need to say that they are hearing racist taunts from fans at Wrigley before we stop saying "that player needs to shut up and grow a set" and start saying "there seems to be a real problem?"<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
a lot more. seriously. when i look at the players making the gripes, they're all the same. whiney and excuse making, chip on the shoulder, underperforming players. jones, hawkins, and now bradley. all of them came to chicago with poor attitudes and all of them bitched when they didn't play well and the fans let them have it.
it all comes back to the way society is now. there is no chance in hell that fans are going to scream racial slurs at players and get away with it. it just isn't going to happen. if the surrounding fans don't take care of it themselves, then security surely will. in this day and age, nobody is going to get away with racist comments in a stadium of 40,000 people. sorry, not going to happen.
does that mean it never happens? of course not. racism will never disappear completely, but i guarantee you that the fans making those comments are dealt with quickly. there isn't a doubt in my mind.
bradley is a douchebag. if he'd just shut his fucking mouth and play the way he's supposed to, people will love him like they love derrek lee, who i believe is also black, but i could be wrong.
Wang.
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<!--quoteo(post=60302:date=Aug 27 2009, 08:14 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Aug 27 2009, 08:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->bradley is a douchebag. if he'd just shut his fucking mouth and play the way he's supposed to, people will love him like they love derrek lee, who i believe is also black, but i could be wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Derrek Lee is black? Well, fuck him, then.
I'm 100% fine with this. I'm just glad there's an actual plan in place that isn't, "Let's load up on retreads and hope we get lucky." I'm a little tired of that plan.
Butcher
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Consider the source.
And I have never ever ever ever heard anyone hurl racial slurs at anyone at the ballpark. Does it happen? Of course it has and it will in small pockets. But is it a widespread problem of our fanbase? Fucking please.
I'd like to hear someone other than Bradley, Dusty, Jones or Hawkins complain about this supposed problem before I get all up in arms about it. Why was this never brought up before 2004?. I'm not buying it. If they want to say we're all the same, then they are just as guilty of generalizing as the racists in the world.
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'd like to hear someone other than Bradley, Dusty, Jones or Hawkins complain about this supposed problem before I get all up in arms about it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a very high percentage of the total number of African Americans to wear a Cubs uniform over the last few years.
It also seems like that is the exact same line that comes up every time. "Let someone other than Hawkins say it and maybe I'll believe it." "Let someone other than Hawkins and Jones say it and maybe I'll believe it." "Let someone other than Hawkins, Jones, or Dusty say it ..."
By the way, Don Baylor has said it too.
This is not some silly theory that's unsupported and deserves being mocked by photos of Xena. ![[Image: ITgoyeg.png]](http://i.imgur.com/ITgoyeg.png)
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<!--quoteo(post=60308:date=Aug 27 2009, 07:58 AM:name=Kid)-->QUOTE (Kid @ Aug 27 2009, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'd like to hear someone other than Bradley, Dusty, Jones or Hawkins complain about this supposed problem before I get all up in arms about it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a very high percentage of the total number of African Americans to wear a Cubs uniform over the last few years.
It also seems like that is the exact same line that comes up every time. "Let someone other than Hawkins say it and maybe I'll believe it." "Let someone other than Hawkins and Jones say it and maybe I'll believe it." "Let someone other than Hawkins, Jones, or Dusty say it ..."
By the way, Don Baylor has said it too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are all good points, but I still can't get around the fact that I find it almost impossible to believe that someone is shouting the N word, surrounded by thousands of people, and getting away with it.
I don't know how to reconcile those two views. I certainly think there are racist assholes in almost every crowd, but there is simply no way to call someone a slur, loud enough for them to hear in RF, but not have security hear it.
I can think of 2 remote possibilities. One, these are veiled racial taunts, which only the taunter and an African American would understand. Or two, these are regular taunts used on everyone, but which black players are misconstruing as racial. Neither of these possibilities seems very convincing.
As a side note, have we heard of any non-Cubs complaining that Cub fans are racist? Or are we only bigoted toward our own players? I think I remember Torii Hunter saying something, but I believe he was going on LaTroy's word.
I wish that I believed in Fate. I wish I didn't sleep so late. I used to be carried in the arms of cheerleaders.
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I think the problem could be alleviated pretty quickly if the "popular" Cubs (DLee, ARam, Zambrano) stepped up. If they asked fans to immediately report any racial taunting to security, I guarantee it would be wiped out pretty quickly.
I understand that this would make a relatively minor story a huge story also.
I got nothin'.
Andy
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<!--quoteo(post=60309:date=Aug 27 2009, 09:15 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Aug 27 2009, 09:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60308:date=Aug 27 2009, 07:58 AM:name=Kid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid @ Aug 27 2009, 07:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->I'd like to hear someone other than Bradley, Dusty, Jones or Hawkins complain about this supposed problem before I get all up in arms about it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a very high percentage of the total number of African Americans to wear a Cubs uniform over the last few years.
It also seems like that is the exact same line that comes up every time. "Let someone other than Hawkins say it and maybe I'll believe it." "Let someone other than Hawkins and Jones say it and maybe I'll believe it." "Let someone other than Hawkins, Jones, or Dusty say it ..."
By the way, Don Baylor has said it too.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those are all good points, but I still can't get around the fact that I find it almost impossible to believe that someone is shouting the N word, surrounded by thousands of people, and getting away with it.
I don't know how to reconcile those two views. I certainly think there are racist assholes in almost every crowd, but there is simply no way to call someone a slur, loud enough for them to hear in RF, but not have security hear it.
I can think of 2 remote possibilities. One, these are veiled racial taunts, which only the taunter and an African American would understand. Or two, these are regular taunts used on everyone, but which black players are misconstruing as racial. Neither of these possibilities seems very convincing.
As a side note, have we heard of any non-Cubs complaining that Cub fans are racist? Or are we only bigoted toward our own players? I think I remember Torii Hunter saying something, but I believe he was going on LaTroy's word.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->''I've heard a few things [from the bleachers],'' Milwaukee Brewers outfielder Mike Cameron said. ''But I don't really get into it with them unless a situation calls for it. I try to stay out of those situations.''<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not some silly theory that's unsupported and deserves being mocked by photos of Xena.
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To be honest, I think you guys are sweeping the issue under the rug.
You're right, nobody is screaming N word in the crowd, but there's ways of throwing racial slurs without it.
Also, the crowd isn't always filled with tough guys that are waiting to lay down the law against racists. I would say on average, it makes people very uncomfortable and nervous to hear someone sling a racial slur and rather than speak up or call for security, they'd rather just pretend it didn't happen and hope it isn't brought up again.
I'm sure some people that say that sort of thing are approached by other more rational people that tell them to cool it or they will call security at which point the offender probably apologizes to the guy that's threatening to call security.
These things go unreported plenty of times. You're also forgetting that there's probably been LOTS of people that have been escorted out by Wrigley field security. You think such incidents are going to be reported to the media?
Just because people may be doing this at games, does not mean Cubs fans are racists though. Just the same as all Cubs fans are not idiots that don't pay attention to the game. And again, nobody is saying Cubs fans are racist. They're just saying there are some racists that come to Wrigley field and mouth off and I don't find that too hard to believe. It <i>would</i> be a racist that's ignorant enough to yell at a player.
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I just think it's very convenient for someone who is struggling and is a douchebag on top of it to play the race card after he's had a few decent games in a row and right at the end of a disappointing season. The other names that have been mentioned in this thread, Don Baylor aside, were also douchebags. Again, consider the source.
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I also wanted to add that I totally understand why you guys want to just brush this off. It's uncomfortable talking about racism especially if it has any sort of association with you personally. We just have to remember that it's not us being ignorant biggots. Just because there's assholes out there that root for the Cubs, that does not make us and them anything alike. There's also not more racists with Cubs hats on than any other baseball team.
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<!--quoteo(post=60321:date=Aug 27 2009, 09:19 AM:name=Scarey)-->QUOTE (Scarey @ Aug 27 2009, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I also wanted to add that I totally understand why you guys want to just brush this off. It's uncomfortable talking about racism especially if it has any sort of association with you personally. We just have to remember that it's not us being ignorant biggots. Just because there's assholes out there that root for the Cubs, that does not make us and them anything alike.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm honestly not trying to brush this off. I'm sure that there have been racist comments made in the stands on numerous occasions. In fact I'm certain of it. Do our or other teams' African American players have the right to be deeply hurt and comment about such things when they occur, especially if it's a recurring issue? Damn right they do. I just have a problem with anyone who comes to this team, struggles, gets booed, then tries to deflect accountability away himself by bringing up race. The world can be an ugly place, and I don't excuse that, but if you are a public figure you'd better be very careful when you start using the word racist and start implying (directly or indirectly) that an entire fanbase either shares in such racism or at the very least condones it or looks the other way. I just haven't seen it, and I won't waste my time defending such people. What exactly do these players expect us to do about this? You can't hold the tongues of all the morons in the world.
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This entire season, and everything about it, has sucked. Including this shit.
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<!--quoteo(post=60323:date=Aug 27 2009, 10:26 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Aug 27 2009, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=60321:date=Aug 27 2009, 09:19 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Aug 27 2009, 09:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I also wanted to add that I totally understand why you guys want to just brush this off. It's uncomfortable talking about racism especially if it has any sort of association with you personally. We just have to remember that it's not us being ignorant biggots. Just because there's assholes out there that root for the Cubs, that does not make us and them anything alike.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm honestly not trying to brush this off. I'm sure that there have been racist comments made in the stands on numerous occasions. Do our or other teams' African American players have the right to be deeply hurt and comment about such things when they occur? Damn right they do. I just have a problem with anyone who comes to this team, struggles, gets booed, then tries to deflect accountability away himself by bringing up race. The world can be an ugly place, and I don't excuse that, but you'd better be very careful when you start using the word racist and start implying (directly or indirectly) that an entire fanbase either shares in such racism or at the very least condones it or looks the other way. I just haven't seen it, and I won't waste my time defending such people. What do these players expect us to do about this? You can't hold the tongues of all the morons in the world.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this is the root of why this gets swept under the rug. Not because it's a difficult thing to talk about (or, at least, that's not the lone reason), but because people think that if they acknowledge that it is happening, that they become guilty by association. Thus, the reaction becomes "I don't say things like that" therefore it doesn't happen.
I don't dispute for one second that this is a small number of people doing this. However, that doesn't mean it's not a real problem.
This is not some silly theory that's unsupported and deserves being mocked by photos of Xena.
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Dan Patrick is about to talk about this on his radio show.
Also, when did Milton start talking to Sullivan?
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