Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn?

[bz]

God that Bill James quote pisses me off. Who in the hell ever suggested that being clutch turns a player into something he isn't? It's the opposite. It's a player not changing his ability under an intense situation. It's a player still playing at the level they normally would despite their heart rate and breath rate increasing, the increase of sweat, the hyperfocus, the adrenaline, the endorphins, the inner monologue, etc.

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=41853:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:45 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's a difference between "clutch" (or what is perceived as "clutch") and "not pissing down your leg."

I'm not arguing that there aren't players who choke under pressure. But not choking ≠ clutch.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What is the difference? How is there no relation?

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=41854:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:47 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jun 3 2009, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->God that Bill James quote pisses me off. Who in the hell ever suggested that being clutch turns a player into something he isn't? It's the opposite. It's a player not changing his ability under an intense situation. It's a player still playing at the level they normally would despite their heart rate and breath rate increasing, the increase of sweat, the hyperfocus, the adrenaline, the endorphins, the inner monologue, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your definition of "clutch" is different from most people's.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=41855:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:49 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jun 3 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41853:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:45 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's a difference between "clutch" (or what is perceived as "clutch") and "not pissing down your leg."

I'm not arguing that there aren't players who choke under pressure. But not choking ≠ clutch.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What is the difference? How is there no relation?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Many people define clutch as being able to perform <i>better than they normally do</i> when the game is on the line.

MLB players are probably the top 1%, most elite baseball players on the planet. They got there by performing at a higher level than 99% of every other baseball player on the planet. The vast majority of them got to this level because they don't piss down their leg in a pressure situation.

I'm not saying that there aren't any professional baseball players that choke. There are. We've all seen it.

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=41856:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:50 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41854:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:47 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jun 3 2009, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->God that Bill James quote pisses me off. Who in the hell ever suggested that being clutch turns a player into something he isn't? It's the opposite. It's a player not changing his ability under an intense situation. It's a player still playing at the level they normally would despite their heart rate and breath rate increasing, the increase of sweat, the hyperfocus, the adrenaline, the endorphins, the inner monologue, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then your definition of "clutch" is different from most people's.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

No it isn't. When anyone talks about a player being a clutch player it is generally a good player. Also, it isn't just one rigid definition or usage of the word "clutch". They could be speaking in the classificatory sense where "clutchness" is evaluated as existing or not depending on how they perform in situations that appear to be in need of relative "clutchness" and are typically associated with an increased amount of stress, for example, their batting average with runners in scoring position.

They could also be using the word in the evaluative sense which is generally what you have a problem with because it elevates a players percieved ability despite the empirical evidense that suggests otherwise. An example is Scott Podsednik being thought of as clutch because people observed him hitting one fucking game winning home run regardless of the fact that he sucks at baseball. This is where someone might be doing what Bill James is referring to.

Generally, most people fall in between these two. They see a player who is normally good come through and perform when there is a lot of pressure more often than not.

[bz]

They evaluative sense of the word "clutch" can also be instance specific. It's meaning being that the situation in which a player performed well in was under difficult situation. Thus, the player was "clutch" in that instance, for example, Scott Podsednik hitting that crappy home run.

[Butcher]

Your analysis of the term is far more in-depth than your average sports fan, bz.

Sorry, but most people perceive "clutch" as the ability to turn it up a notch when the game is on the line. Whether that means a good player becomes a great player or a great player becomes a god, it doesn't matter.

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=41858:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:56 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41855:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:49 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jun 3 2009, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41853:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:45 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 04:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->There's a difference between "clutch" (or what is perceived as "clutch") and "not pissing down your leg."

I'm not arguing that there aren't players who choke under pressure. But not choking ≠ clutch.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What is the difference? How is there no relation?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
MLB players are probably the top 1%, most elite baseball players on the planet. They got there by performing at a higher level than 99% of every other baseball player on the planet. The vast majority of them got to this level because they don't piss down their leg in a pressure situation.

I'm not saying that there aren't any professional baseball players that choke. There are. We've all seen it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That way of thinking is too assumptive circular and denies instance specificity and the general relativeness of each new level of play.

Once you are in the majors it is an entirely new set of standards and circumstances and an entirely new situation than your previous level of play. Everything resets. You're previous relative ability to not piss down your leg in a pressure situation that go you to this new level is no longer relevant. Now, you must perform well under these new circumstances and not piss down your leg against a new group of peers.

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=41865:date=Jun 3 2009, 05:18 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Your analysis of the term is far more in-depth than your average sports fan, bz.

Sorry, but most people perceive "clutch" as the ability to turn it up a notch when the game is on the line. Whether that means a good player becomes a great player or a great player becomes a god, it doesn't matter.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Just because someone uses the word clutch in a specific manner doesn't mean they intend to do so or they are wrong for doing it. You don't have to <i>know</i> you're doing something right to do something right. When anyone is using the word "clutch" they are using it in any of the ways I've listed or other ways, even if they don't know that they are specifically doing so. They aren't just inferring that a player becomes better.

[PcB]

<!--quoteo(post=41852:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:41 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jun 3 2009, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41794:date=Jun 3 2009, 12:41 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->To quote Bill James: How is it that a player who possesses the reflexes and the batting stroke and the knowledge and the experience to be a .260 hitter in other circumstances magically becomes a .300 hitter when the game is on the line? How does that happen? What is the process? What are the effects? Until we can answer those questions, I see little point in talking about clutch ability.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you not read this:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Don't mistake clutchness for making a shitty player suddenly channel Babe Ruth when the game is on the line. Clutchness is relative and players that would perform well in any situation are those that I am referring to when I speak of clutchness.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Now to address your other comment...I always play at a high level when it comes to bean bags. I'm one of the best that I know. And when the game is on the line and it is down to me, I never buckle under pressure. That is being clutch. Some players can shut down an opponent every time like Trevor Hoffman or some players freak out when the pressure is on like LaTroy Hawkins.

You are fooling yourself if you believe that just because someone has the ability they will use it to it's full potential all the time.

You've obviously never had to deal with your own adrenaline or emotions when pressure rises. There's no other way to know what it feels like to have to perform under duress unless you've actually done so.

Clutchness is ones ability to not fold, to keep performing under pressure, to not make mistakes under pressure and to pull through with a big performance under pressure. It isn't "turning it up a notch" or whatever. It is the ability to adapt to your overwhelming emotions and rush of adrenaline, endorphins, etc. If you don't think that the pressure of a situation doesn't affect a players immediate ability in that situation then you're crazy or you've never been in a tight situation yourself.

But "clutchness" won't make Jason Bere become Sandy Koufax. If a player is already a good player then they will perform better than average players in any situation. But a good player that isn't affect by high amounts of pressure is better than a good player who simply cannot handle pressure. It isn't the devine, romantic ability that Hollywood movies have made it or the lore of baseball past has made it. But it is a trait that some people are born with and some people are not. Or a trait that people have developed and mastered or some people have not. To say otherwise is lunacy.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... you're saying what I said to you yesterday? Thanks for giving me credit on this one...

[bz]

<!--quoteo(post=41870:date=Jun 3 2009, 05:42 PM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jun 3 2009, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41852:date=Jun 3 2009, 04:41 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jun 3 2009, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=41794:date=Jun 3 2009, 12:41 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 3 2009, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->To quote Bill James: How is it that a player who possesses the reflexes and the batting stroke and the knowledge and the experience to be a .260 hitter in other circumstances magically becomes a .300 hitter when the game is on the line? How does that happen? What is the process? What are the effects? Until we can answer those questions, I see little point in talking about clutch ability.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Did you not read this:

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Don't mistake clutchness for making a shitty player suddenly channel Babe Ruth when the game is on the line. Clutchness is relative and players that would perform well in any situation are those that I am referring to when I speak of clutchness.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Now to address your other comment...I always play at a high level when it comes to bean bags. I'm one of the best that I know. And when the game is on the line and it is down to me, I never buckle under pressure. That is being clutch. Some players can shut down an opponent every time like Trevor Hoffman or some players freak out when the pressure is on like LaTroy Hawkins.

You are fooling yourself if you believe that just because someone has the ability they will use it to it's full potential all the time.

You've obviously never had to deal with your own adrenaline or emotions when pressure rises. There's no other way to know what it feels like to have to perform under duress unless you've actually done so.

Clutchness is ones ability to not fold, to keep performing under pressure, to not make mistakes under pressure and to pull through with a big performance under pressure. It isn't "turning it up a notch" or whatever. It is the ability to adapt to your overwhelming emotions and rush of adrenaline, endorphins, etc. If you don't think that the pressure of a situation doesn't affect a players immediate ability in that situation then you're crazy or you've never been in a tight situation yourself.

But "clutchness" won't make Jason Bere become Sandy Koufax. If a player is already a good player then they will perform better than average players in any situation. But a good player that isn't affect by high amounts of pressure is better than a good player who simply cannot handle pressure. It isn't the devine, romantic ability that Hollywood movies have made it or the lore of baseball past has made it. But it is a trait that some people are born with and some people are not. Or a trait that people have developed and mastered or some people have not. To say otherwise is lunacy.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So... you're saying what I said to you yesterday? Thanks for giving me credit on this one...
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

What? Just because you said stuff similar to this doesn't mean I didn't come up with it myself. Me agreeing with you doesn't mean I was presented with something new.

[bz]

And actually, you didn't say 90% of that shit

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->You've obviously never had to deal with your own adrenaline or emotions when pressure rises. There's no other way to know what it feels like to have to perform under duress unless you've actually done so.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->If you don't think that the pressure of a situation doesn't affect a players immediate ability in that situation then you're crazy or you've never been in a tight situation yourself.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Really, bz? This is what we're doing? "If you don't believe in "clutchness," you've obviously never experienced pressure or been in a tight situation?" I don't feel I need to respond to that.

1. There are crappy players that will come up with a big hit in a "game is on the line" situation. And that will be perceived as a "clutch" hit. The problem is that this same player will hit .200 in every other "game is on the line" situation. So...is that player "clutch" for coming up with that one big hit? Or do baseball players -- even average ones -- sometimes come up with big hits in big situations?

2. The players who are perceived as the most "clutch" are typically just the best players. They are more likely to get a big hit in a big situation because they're always more likely than the average player to get a hit in *any* situation.

3. There are people -- a LOT of people -- who believe that there is an intangible ability ("clutchness" "clutchiness?") to raise the level of one's game above their natural skill set when the pressure is on.

4. I agree that there are players who crumble under pressure. I'm not arguing against that. Even some very good players crumble under the spotlight. But I simply refuse to believe that there are players who play BETTER under the spotlight. It flies in the face of logic. There are players who don't let pressure affect them. That isn't the same thing as being "clutch." Clutch is a myth.

[BT]

Butch has made most of my points for me. To simplify, let's say you could assign a number between 1-100 to a person's ability (i know you can't). Let say Soriano is a 75. I think most people would define "clutch" as a 75 suddenly becoming a 90 when the game is on the line. I don't believe that is possible. BZ, you seem to be claiming that a 75's ability to not become a 50 when the game is on the line, is the definition of clutch. While I think a player folding is definitely possible, I don't believe that is the definition of a clutch player, as it is commonly used.

[rok]

So do we throw situational stats out the window? That's where I get lost in these arguments, because there are players out there, even good ones who perform worse than their averages, with men on base than with bases empty. I know that's simplistic, but I like to keep it simple. Sure, Pujols is going to hit well in every situation, but I'd rather talk about the people who aren't stars. The .260-.280 hitters out there who seem to thrive with RISP.