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<!--quoteo(post=30617:date=Apr 15 2009, 04:27 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 15 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30616:date=Apr 15 2009, 04:16 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Apr 15 2009, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30603:date=Apr 15 2009, 04:04 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 15 2009, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30601:date=Apr 15 2009, 04:02 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Apr 15 2009, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30599:date=Apr 15 2009, 03:54 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Apr 15 2009, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30589:date=Apr 15 2009, 03:26 PM:name=Andy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy @ Apr 15 2009, 03:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->How many of you guys actually read the article? Given some of the responses, I don't think half of you read anything but "racist" and "Cubs fans".
Torii Hunter put the Cubs on his no-trade list because of things he had heard from other ball players about how Cubs fans treats black players. Cameron said it was the worst place he's been to. Dusty, Jones and Hawkins didn't just get insults, but got racial slurs and death threats. There's a huge difference between getting booed for being a shitty player and getting called, who knows what due to their race.
I have absolutely no doubt that there are racist fans in every ball park. They either aren't as vocal at other stadiums or aren't as frequent.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was basically all I was trying to say, but I never even mentioned a word about Cub fans, I was talking about the city in general. I don't think it's as inviting and racially tolerant as some of you seem to think it is.
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And you would be...
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ruby.gif[/img]
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If you wanna think so, but it's not like I don't have personal experiences and andecotal evidence to support my version either.
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I'm sure you have personal experiences and anecdotal evidence based on the handful of times you've been to Chicago. But don't go generalizing a whole city because you saw some bad things a few times. I'm in Chicago close to 50 times a year...anywhere from Lincoln Park to Hyde Park. Chicago happens to have some of the countries largest black, asian, hispanic, european and openly gay communities in the United States. Cram countless ethnicities, backgrounds, religions and orientations into relatively small area and you're bound to bump into assholes. Iowa has 3,000,000 people in 240 times the area of Chicago.
When it comes to being cultured and understanding of cultures and people, you are kind of in the back seat, dooder.
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I wasn't comparing Iowa to Chicago, that's not was this is about. I grew up in Dubuque when there were cross burnings, KKK rallys, and whatnot, Iowa is clearly not devoid of have negative racial overtones. Saying I've been to Chicago a handful of times is just silly, you don't have any idea how often I've been to the area or the city. I probably spend 50 days in the area and another 10 or more in the city every year, I've got plenty of experience to base my thoughts on.
Also, I'm pretty sure my family make up doesn't put me in the back seat when it comes to being cultured and understanding of cultures. It'd probably be good just to leave that topic alone.
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I just find it really hard to believe that you could have come here some 50 times a year and still think that. Either I'm just lucky not have seen much BS or you're just unlucky to have had to. Cause it definitely don't think its as racist as you're making it out to be.
If Angelo had picked McClellin, I would have been expecting to hear by training camp that kid has stage 4 cancer, is actually 5'2" 142 lbs, is a chick who played in a 7 - 0 defensive scheme who only rotated in on downs which were 3 and 34 yds + so is not expecting to play a down in the NFL until the sex change is complete and she puts on another 100 lbs. + but this is Emery's first pick so he'll get a pass with a bit of questioning. - 1060Ivy
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I think you guys are being unfair to ruby.
He didn't say "Chicago is a racist city. Think Selma, Alabama in the 1950's...that's Chicago."
He merely said that, as an outsider, he was a little startled by some of the things he saw and heard.
Believe me, when you hear someone talk in general conversation these days, and they use genuinely un-PC language, you remember it. It's startling.
If anyone is going to say that they've never heard a single dude use the N-word in the Chicagoland area, ever,... well, I really question that.
BTW, since most of my relatives are from the Chicago area, and I was mostly raised out West, I think I have a unique perspective on Chicagoan language. IMO, race and ethnicity are mentioned more in conversation, in description, and in casual passing more in Chicago than in most cities I have been in, including the Deep South. Not always in a derogatory manner. And not a lot more. Just enough so that it's noticeable to a visiting outsider. It doesn't bother me: I kind of like it, even. But it's there.
It's not racist. I think it's a product of, as Rok pointed out, the "neighborhood" equation of how the city was settled. Even my own parents, (both from Chicago until age 30) who are 2 of the <i>least</i> prejudiced people on earth, talk like that.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I think you guys are being unfair to ruby.
He didn't say "Chicago is a racist city. Think Selma, Alabama in the 1950's...that's Chicago."
He merely said that, as an outsider, he was a little startled by some of the things he saw and heard.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
He also implied, based on his experiences, that this article might not be as far off as we might think.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->If anyone is going to say that they've never heard a single dude use the N-word in the Chicagoland area, ever, I'm going to automatically dismiss anything that person says, because it's patently absurd.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nobody in this thread has said that. Several people have said that they haven't heard that word used <i>at Wrigley.</i>
Is the argument that there are idiotic racist morons inside the city limits of Chicago? Then yes, ruby is correct. There certainly are people like that. But I don't think that's what this discussion is about.
The problem is that articles like these paint with too wide of a brush. Not only that, but every idiotic Cards/Brewers/Sox fan that has a myopic view of who Cubs fans are feel justified in their beliefs when an article like this is published.
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I agree with you Butch. I think the article paints too wide a brush. But it does point out some unsettling truths about how Chicago and Wrigley are <b>perceived</b>.
Remember how the Kennedys won the White House in 1960? They used, as their basic credo, the same credo that had propelled the dad (Joe Kennedy) to great riches: for most people, Perception Is Reality.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=30624:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I agree with you Butch. I think the article paints too wide a brush. But it does point out some unsettling truths about how Chicago and Wrigley are <b>perceived</b>.
Remember how the Kennedys won the White House in 1960? They used, as their basic credo, the same credo that had propelled the dad (Joe Kennedy) to great riches: for most people, Perception Is Reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it's articles like this one that have helped create that perception. It's irresponsible.
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<!--quoteo(post=30625:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 15 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30624:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I agree with you Butch. I think the article paints too wide a brush. But it does point out some unsettling truths about how Chicago and Wrigley are <b>perceived</b>.
Remember how the Kennedys won the White House in 1960? They used, as their basic credo, the same credo that had propelled the dad (Joe Kennedy) to great riches: for most people, Perception Is Reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it's articles like this one that have helped create that perception. It's irresponsible.
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It would be if it were just some writer's opinion. But it's not...it's a collection of <i>actual quotes</i> from black ballplayers, tied in with some well-known stories from recent black Cubs.
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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<!--quoteo(post=30625:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 15 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30624:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I agree with you Butch. I think the article paints too wide a brush. But it does point out some unsettling truths about how Chicago and Wrigley are <b>perceived</b>.
Remember how the Kennedys won the White House in 1960? They used, as their basic credo, the same credo that had propelled the dad (Joe Kennedy) to great riches: for most people, Perception Is Reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it's articles like this one that have helped create that perception. It's irresponsible.
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I think you might have it a little backwards.
BTW, it's not like I don't like Chicago, it's my favorite city and I'll probably be living their sooner rather than latere
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<!--quoteo(post=30627:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:16 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 15 2009, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30625:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:07 PM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Apr 15 2009, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=30624:date=Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Apr 15 2009, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I agree with you Butch. I think the article paints too wide a brush. But it does point out some unsettling truths about how Chicago and Wrigley are <b>perceived</b>.
Remember how the Kennedys won the White House in 1960? They used, as their basic credo, the same credo that had propelled the dad (Joe Kennedy) to great riches: for most people, Perception Is Reality.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And it's articles like this one that have helped create that perception. It's irresponsible.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It would be if it were just some writer's opinion. But it's not...it's a collection of <i>actual quotes</i> from black ballplayers, tied in with some well-known stories from recent black Cubs.
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And are we sure that if sportswriters across the country set out to pen a similar article about the fanbase of every other team in baseball, they wouldn't come to the same conclusions? Sorry, but I simply refuse to believe that fans on the Northside of Chicago are made up of a larger percentage of bigots than the fans of every other team in MLB. It flies in the face of logic.
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I agree with your logic, Butch. And I haven't heard of the same problem at the Cell, so it's probably not the city itself. It's almost certainly that tiny percentage of jackasses who color the whole picture.
But that takes us back to my original point: Wrigley has to do a better job of expunging those offending dicks, because the current perception among current black ballplayers, is that Wrigley is a hostile place for black ballplayers.
True or not, that <b>is</b> the perception. And as JFK said...
There's nothing better than to realize that the good things about youth don't end with youth itself. It's a matter of realizing that life can be renewed every day you get out of bed without baggage. It's tough to get there, but it's better than the dark thoughts. -Lance
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This just in:
April 20 - KKK Day @ Wrigley Field. The first 10,000 adults will receive a hooded white hat with the cubs logo on the back.
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pcb.gif[/img]
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This is just a stunt by Wittenmeyer to get more readers and controversy on Jackie Robinson Day.
You guys fell for it hook,line and sinker.
I would expect better from better you guys.
A herd of buffalo can move only as fast as the slowest buffalo. When the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.
In much the same way the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, we all know, kills brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
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<!--quoteo(post=30455:date=Apr 15 2009, 01:15 PM:name=Andy)-->QUOTE (Andy @ Apr 15 2009, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->The problem is that multiple players have now made mention of it. Both Cubs players and visiting players. There must be something to it. It certainly isn't to say that it's not a vocal minority, but the fact that the majority doesn't put an end to it, doesn't bode well.
Obviously players that play well aren't going to hear it.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Andy's hit the nail on the head. Numerous players have reported the same thing and it's pretty clear that Wrigley is developing a reputation.
I think people have either misread the article or didn't read it in the first place. Nowhere does Wittenmeyer come close to saying "Cubs fans are racists" or "most Cubs fans are racists." Because the article is either misread or people don't read and hear 2nd hand that "an article says all Cubs fans are racists," they turn around and A. take offense at the premise, the only problem being that's not the premise and B. deny the existence of a problem so as to deny any racism-by-association on their part.
Wittenmeyer reports on what appears to be a legitimate problem at Wrigley - racist taunting by fans in sufficient volume as to exceed the norm. Is it a problem caused by a handful of drunken idiots in the bleachers? Probably - but again nobody has suggested it's a widespread problem among Cubs fans. But that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue.
This is not some silly theory that's unsupported and deserves being mocked by photos of Xena. ![[Image: ITgoyeg.png]](http://i.imgur.com/ITgoyeg.png)
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<!--quoteo(post=30652:date=Apr 15 2009, 06:57 PM:name=Kid)-->QUOTE (Kid @ Apr 15 2009, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wittenmeyer reports on what appears to be a legitimate problem at Wrigley - racist taunting by fans in sufficient volume as to exceed the norm. Is it a problem caused by a handful of drunken idiots in the bleachers? Probably - but again nobody has suggested it's a widespread problem among Cubs fans. But that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sucks that a few idiots have to ruin it for everyone, but that's the way it usually goes with this sort of thing.
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Wrigley is no differrent than any other ML park.I've had the fortune to visit most of them in the past 5-10 years.
What is Wittenmeyer's purpose for this slander?
A herd of buffalo can move only as fast as the slowest buffalo. When the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.
In much the same way the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, we all know, kills brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers.
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<!--quoteo(post=30655:date=Apr 15 2009, 09:08 PM:name=Captain)-->QUOTE (Captain @ Apr 15 2009, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Wrigley is no differrent than any other ML park.I've had the fortune to visit most of them in the past 5-10 years.
What is Wittenmeyer's purpose for this slander?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With all due respect, the players are the ones who are going to have the experience to say where the problems are. Just because you've never heard anything at Wrigley, doesn't mean the players haven't.
It's not slander if it's true and it's been identified as a problem by too many players to be dismissed out of hand.
This is not some silly theory that's unsupported and deserves being mocked by photos of Xena.
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