Aramis wants to be a Cub for life

[Dirk]

<!--quoteo(post=21990:date=Mar 5 2009, 12:21 PM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Mar 5 2009, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I guess I'd move ARod down a bit now that he's out until May.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did this happen?

[Coldneck]

<!--quoteo(post=21995:date=Mar 5 2009, 12:37 PM:name=Dirk)-->QUOTE (Dirk @ Mar 5 2009, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=21990:date=Mar 5 2009, 12:21 PM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Mar 5 2009, 12:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I guess I'd move ARod down a bit now that he's out until May.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did this happen?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

A little while ago. He's having hip surgery. Its all over ESPN.

[kbwsb]

FWIW, in Santo's era, there were a lot of great 3rd basemen too. For instance, in 1964 he had an awesome year: 30HR, 114 RBI, .313 avg, OPS+ of 164 (!), and a Gold Glove at 3rd. Top Ten in the MVP vote, despite the Cubs sucking and coming in 8th place.

However, in 1964, Ken Boyer won the NL MVP, Brooks Robinson won the AL MVP, and Richie Allen had one of the best rookie seasons in baseball history (and of course won ROTY).
All were third basemen.

[leonardsipes]

If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=22043:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he was. The only reason Boyer won was cuz the Cards won the pennant.
You could make a real strong case that Santo was the very best player in all baseball that year; Mantle and Mays had their usual kick-ass seasons, of course, but Santo led the NL in OBP, came 2nd only to Mays in SLG, and won a GG at 3rd, despite being only 24 years old.

And he was at least "in the discussion" for the Very Best Player in MLB for the next 3-4 years.
I love Aramis, but would you seriously says he's one of the best players in the sport?

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=21989:date=Mar 5 2009, 12:10 PM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I looked at OPS+, which is comparable between eras. Santo is career 125, Aram 113. Santo had 4 years above 145, Aram's career high is 138. The both had years with an OPS+ of 126. Santo in 1968 hit .246/.354/.421 26hr(6th). Aram in 2006 .291/.352/.561 38hr(8th). 1960's numbers just do not compare with current numbers. For his era, Santo was a better hitter, plus had 5 gold gloves. Aram of course can have a lot more good years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

That's all I was sayin'. Thanks, Sipesy.

[Giff]

<!--quoteo(post=21989:date=Mar 5 2009, 11:10 AM:name=leonardsipes)-->QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 11:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I looked at OPS+, which is comparable between eras. Santo is career 125, Aram 113. Santo had 4 years above 145, Aram's career high is 138. The both had years with an OPS+ of 126. Santo in 1968 hit .246/.354/.421 26hr(6th). Aram in 2006 .291/.352/.561 38hr(8th). 1960's numbers just do not compare with current numbers. For his era, Santo was a better hitter, plus had 5 gold gloves. Aram of course can have a lot more good years.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm in the camp that Ramirez has got a ways to go to catch Santo, but since we're talking best Cubs thirdbasemen, I'd like to see his career OPS+ in a Cubs uniform, because that would certainly be higher than 113.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=22049:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22043:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he was. The only reason Boyer won was cuz the Cards won the pennant.
You could make a real strong case that Santo was the very best player in all baseball that year; Mantle and Mays had their usual kick-ass seasons, of course, but Santo led the NL in OBP, came 2nd only to Mays in SLG, and won a GG at 3rd, despite being only 24 years old.

And he was at least "in the discussion" for the Very Best Player in MLB for the next 3-4 years.
I love Aramis, but would you seriously says he's one of the best players in the sport?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


in a couple more years, ramirez will pass santo as best cub thirdbaseman ever. copy and paste.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=22241:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22049:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22043:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he was. The only reason Boyer won was cuz the Cards won the pennant.
You could make a real strong case that Santo was the very best player in all baseball that year; Mantle and Mays had their usual kick-ass seasons, of course, but Santo led the NL in OBP, came 2nd only to Mays in SLG, and won a GG at 3rd, despite being only 24 years old.

And he was at least "in the discussion" for the Very Best Player in MLB for the next 3-4 years.
I love Aramis, but would you seriously says he's one of the best players in the sport?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


in a couple more years, ramirez will pass santo as best cub thirdbaseman ever. copy and paste.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess Ramirez is going to have a couple of ridiculous career years coming up.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=22256:date=Mar 6 2009, 09:42 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 6 2009, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22241:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22049:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22043:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he was. The only reason Boyer won was cuz the Cards won the pennant.
You could make a real strong case that Santo was the very best player in all baseball that year; Mantle and Mays had their usual kick-ass seasons, of course, but Santo led the NL in OBP, came 2nd only to Mays in SLG, and won a GG at 3rd, despite being only 24 years old.

And he was at least "in the discussion" for the Very Best Player in MLB for the next 3-4 years.
I love Aramis, but would you seriously says he's one of the best players in the sport?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


in a couple more years, ramirez will pass santo as best cub thirdbaseman ever. copy and paste.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess Ramirez is going to have a couple of ridiculous career years coming up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

butchie gets it.

[Butcher]

<!--quoteo(post=22260:date=Mar 6 2009, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)-->QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 6 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22256:date=Mar 6 2009, 09:42 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 6 2009, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22241:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22049:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22043:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he was. The only reason Boyer won was cuz the Cards won the pennant.
You could make a real strong case that Santo was the very best player in all baseball that year; Mantle and Mays had their usual kick-ass seasons, of course, but Santo led the NL in OBP, came 2nd only to Mays in SLG, and won a GG at 3rd, despite being only 24 years old.

And he was at least "in the discussion" for the Very Best Player in MLB for the next 3-4 years.
I love Aramis, but would you seriously says he's one of the best players in the sport?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


in a couple more years, ramirez will pass santo as best cub thirdbaseman ever. copy and paste.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess Ramirez is going to have a couple of ridiculous career years coming up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

butchie gets it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm looking forward to it.

[veryzer]

<!--quoteo(post=22261:date=Mar 6 2009, 10:13 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 6 2009, 10:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22260:date=Mar 6 2009, 10:12 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 6 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22256:date=Mar 6 2009, 09:42 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Mar 6 2009, 09:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22241:date=Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM:name=veryzer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (veryzer @ Mar 6 2009, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22049:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Mar 5 2009, 02:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22043:date=Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM:name=leonardsipes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (leonardsipes @ Mar 5 2009, 02:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->If the Cubs were not so bad, Santo would have done much better in MVP voting. I think he was better than Boyer that year.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, he was. The only reason Boyer won was cuz the Cards won the pennant.
You could make a real strong case that Santo was the very best player in all baseball that year; Mantle and Mays had their usual kick-ass seasons, of course, but Santo led the NL in OBP, came 2nd only to Mays in SLG, and won a GG at 3rd, despite being only 24 years old.

And he was at least "in the discussion" for the Very Best Player in MLB for the next 3-4 years.
I love Aramis, but would you seriously says he's one of the best players in the sport?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


in a couple more years, ramirez will pass santo as best cub thirdbaseman ever. copy and paste.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess Ramirez is going to have a couple of ridiculous career years coming up.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

butchie gets it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm looking forward to it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


it will be glorious. razzle dazzle even.

[Ronsantorocks]

Aramis is a good third basemen, and he is the best third baseman since Santo, but I don't think he's better... yet. Santo had 3 gold gloves 6 years into his Cubs career and A-Ram's got none. But from what I hear he's improved his glove, but A-Ram's a better hitter and...he's clutch. give it a few more years and than I think he could be better than Santo.

[Coach]

<!--quoteo(post=22341:date=Mar 7 2009, 01:25 AM:name=Ronsantorocks)-->QUOTE (Ronsantorocks @ Mar 7 2009, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Aramis is a good third basemen, and he is the best third baseman since Santo, but I don't think he's better... yet. Santo had 3 gold gloves 6 years into his Cubs career and A-Ram's got none. But from what I hear he's improved his glove, but A-Ram's a better hitter and...he's clutch. give it a few more years and than I think he could be better than Santo.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The Gold Glove award lost alot of respect in '99 when Palmeiro won it.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=22347:date=Mar 7 2009, 07:12 AM:name=Coach)-->QUOTE (Coach @ Mar 7 2009, 07:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=22341:date=Mar 7 2009, 01:25 AM:name=Ronsantorocks)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ronsantorocks @ Mar 7 2009, 01:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Aramis is a good third basemen, and he is the best third baseman since Santo, but I don't think he's better... yet. Santo had 3 gold gloves 6 years into his Cubs career and A-Ram's got none. But from what I hear he's improved his glove, but A-Ram's a better hitter and...he's clutch. give it a few more years and than I think he could be better than Santo.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

The Gold Glove award lost alot of respect in '99 when Palmeiro won it.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And although I'm on the Ramirez-is-not-and-likely-will-not-be-better-than-Santo side of things, I do think it's fair to point out that Ramirez very likely should have won a GG by now. Was it two years ago that he was great and somehow didn't win it?