Pitchers And Catchers Report

[Clapp]

A couple familiar faces (Big League Stew)
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/mellow.gif[/img]

[phan]

depressing. I think we're really going to regret the dero trade

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=17679:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:26 PM:name=phan)-->QUOTE (phan @ Feb 12 2009, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->depressing. I think we're really going to regret the dero trade<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what seems to be a given? (Warning: People overly impressed by authority, do not read any further.)
That although most trades and signings are tough to evaluate right away, almost all of the transactions in which there is virtual 100% agreement on, (as per that transaction's stupidity, ie the Kazmir-V. Zambrano trade, the Zito signing, the Brad Lidge trade, the Juan Pierre/Dodgers signing, etc.) almost always play out exactly as predicted.

So yes...we will certainly rue the DeRosa trade.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=17686:date=Feb 12 2009, 04:59 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 04:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17679:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:26 PM:name=phan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phan @ Feb 12 2009, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->depressing. I think we're really going to regret the dero trade<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know what seems to be a given? (Warning: People overly impressed by authority, do not read any further.)
That although most trades and signings are tough to evaluate right away, almost all of the transactions in which there is virtual 100% agreement on, (as per that transaction's stupidity, ie the Kazmir-V. Zambrano trade, the Zito signing, <b>the Brad Lidge trade</b>, the Juan Pierre/Dodgers signing, etc.) almost always play out exactly as predicted.

So yes...we will certainly rue the DeRosa trade.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because I enjoy this stuff with you...[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]

Brad Lidge was a 31-year-old coming off one really bad, and then one good but not spectacular season. It was a trade of a setup man dealing with confidence issues for a guy they thought was going to be their leadoff hitter for years.

Bourn was awful at the plate but robbed us and the rest of the league like crazy on flyballs in center field, and still stole 41 bags. Lidge of course went on to be arguably the MVP of the league, but there were at least as many people that expected him to be a disaster as closer in Philly as there were people that thought he'd do well. It seemed like an even deal or pretty close to it at the time. Bourn's still only 26 and who knows, that could still look like a fine deal for the Astros. Just sayin that deal does not belong in those parentheses.

[kbwsb]

[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
I hope you know that I enjoy these tug-o-wars too, especially since you're very informed, a cool guy, and basically disagree with with me on everything.

When the Lidge trade was made, I believe I made a long post discussing my opinion that Ed Wade, the Astros new GM, had lapped the competition, and was now the worst GM in MLB. I was not alone in that thought. Lidge was coming of a year with a 131 ERA+, which is excellent. He had been outstanding in 4 of his 5 MLB seasons.

Michael Bourn is a good fielder, as you stated. However, he can't hit a baseball. At all. This tends to be a problem for ML outfielders, as per their "value." His career slash stats are .237/.299/.313
I'm not making those up.
Even if he were a Gold Glove SS, those stats would be hideous. For an OFer they're...uh...I don't know, really, <i>really</i> hideous?
Everyone knew he couldn't hit before the trade. Everyone knew Lidge was an elite pitcher. Everyone but you and Ed Wade, it seems. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]

[Fella]

Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=17693:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:31 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]
I hope you know that I enjoy these tug-o-wars too, especially since you're very informed, a cool guy, and basically disagree with with me on everything.

When the Lidge trade was made, I believe I made a long post discussing my opinion that Ed Wade, the Astros new GM, had lapped the competition, and was now the worst GM in MLB. I was not alone in that thought. Lidge was coming of a year with a 131 ERA+, which is excellent. He had been outstanding in 4 of his 5 MLB seasons.

Michael Bourn is a good fielder, as you stated. However, he can't hit a baseball. At all. This tends to be a problem for ML outfielders, as per their "value." His career slash stats are .237/.299/.313
I'm not making those up.
Even if he were a Gold Glove SS, those stats would be hideous. For an OFer they're...uh...I don't know, really, <i>really</i> hideous?
Everyone knew he couldn't hit before the trade. Everyone knew Lidge was an elite pitcher. Everyone but you and Ed Wade, it seems. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I always loved Brad Lidge, he's from here. If Marmol doesn't have the best slider in the game, Lidge does. He even admitted to having confidence issues(and the battery throwing fans in Philly didn't seem like the best play to solve that) though and seemed like nothing more than a solid 7th/8th inning guy. Would you have traded Pie for Lidge? Bourn had already done more at the MLB Level than Pie has. They thought they were getting an ideal leadoff hitter that steals 60 bases, which he would've if he didn't shit the bed at the plate. I probably would'nt have done the trade, but it wasn't anywhere near the Victor Zambrano-Kazmir deals.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:50 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->

You can still use ERA+ for relievers, but only to compare to other relievers; and you're right, they are always MUCH higher for relievers than starters.

[Clapp]

<!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM:name=Fella)-->QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's not a win, it doesn't belong with those other deals.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=17706:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's not a win, it doesn't belong with those other deals.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither does the DeRosa deal. All of the others involve stars, or guys that were looked at as stars. DeRosa is not a star, he's a utility player.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=17707:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:32 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 12 2009, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17706:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's not a win, it doesn't belong with those other deals.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither does the DeRosa deal. All of the others involve stars, or guys that were looked at as stars. DeRosa is not a star, he's a utility player.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well last year he hit 21 HR 87 RBI, scored 103 runs, and had a 118 OPS+ while playing 6 (six) position, all pretty well. I'd say that kind of year carries more star power than anything Juan Pierre, Victor Zambrano or Michael Bourne have ever done. In fact, you could make a pretty solid point that DeRosa is coming off a better year than ANY of the traded or signed players mentioned in the original post.

[Ace]

<!--quoteo(post=17707:date=Feb 12 2009, 08:32 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 12 2009, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17706:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's not a win, it doesn't belong with those other deals.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither does the DeRosa deal. All of the others involve stars, or guys that were looked at as stars. DeRosa is not a star, he's a utility player.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup. DeRosa was a great player to have. But on a team with Aramis Ramirez, Alfonso Soriano, Milton Bradley, Geovany Soto, and Derrek Lee (and that's just on offense), he's not a star.

[ruby23]

<!--quoteo(post=17715:date=Feb 12 2009, 08:21 PM:name=KBwsb)-->QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17707:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:32 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 12 2009, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17706:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's not a win, it doesn't belong with those other deals.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither does the DeRosa deal. All of the others involve stars, or guys that were looked at as stars. DeRosa is not a star, he's a utility player.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well last year he hit 21 HR 87 RBI, scored 103 runs, and had a 118 OPS+ while playing 6 (six) position, all pretty well. I'd say that kind of year carries more star power than anything Juan Pierre, Victor Zambrano or Michael Bourne have ever done. In fact, you could make a pretty solid point that DeRosa is coming off a better year than ANY of the traded or signed players mentioned in the original post.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Star power at time of deals: Zito > Lidge > Pierre > Kazmir > DeRosa. Be real here KB, the DeRosa trade is barely a blip on the MLB landscape. All of those other deals involved much higher profile (whether it was deserved or not) players than the trade of an aging utility player.

[kbwsb]

<!--quoteo(post=17718:date=Feb 12 2009, 08:25 PM:name=ruby23)-->QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 12 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17715:date=Feb 12 2009, 08:21 PM:name=KBwsb)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KBwsb @ Feb 12 2009, 08:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17707:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:32 PM:name=ruby23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ruby23 @ Feb 12 2009, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17706:date=Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Feb 12 2009, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=17696:date=Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM:name=Fella)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fella @ Feb 12 2009, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kb my friend, you gotta stop using ERA+ to value closers, they ALL have high ERA+s, they pitch one inning, their job is to not allow runs. You did the same thing while evaluating Gregg and Wood. ERA+ is a starting pitcher stat.

That said, I agree Lidge for Bourn was always a win for the Phillies from the start.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying it's not a win, it doesn't belong with those other deals.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither does the DeRosa deal. All of the others involve stars, or guys that were looked at as stars. DeRosa is not a star, he's a utility player.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well last year he hit 21 HR 87 RBI, scored 103 runs, and had a 118 OPS+ while playing 6 (six) position, all pretty well. I'd say that kind of year carries more star power than anything Juan Pierre, Victor Zambrano or Michael Bourne have ever done. In fact, you could make a pretty solid point that DeRosa is coming off a better year than ANY of the traded or signed players mentioned in the original post.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Star power at time of deals: Zito > Lidge > Pierre > Kazmir > DeRosa. Be real here KB, the DeRosa trade is barely a blip on the MLB landscape. All of those other deals involved much higher profile (whether it was deserved or not) players than the trade of an aging utility player.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh hell, of COURSE I agree with you about high profile. In fact ruby's little >> equation was spot-on.
But is Hendry building a team based around media observations about "star power?" Or is he basing it on "production on the field?" Because as far as "production," DeRosa is coming off a better year than any of the guys mentioned did before they were traded.

Which is exactly what I said in my last post.

[sleepyhead]

Some pictures of Cubs that have already reported here
http://www.boysofspring.com/journal/journal.php