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Ranking the Farms - PcB - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I considered the entire list of prospects in each system in ranking the organizations, but I gave much more weight to top prospects, particularly high-impact prospects, than to organizational depth in average to fringe-average prospects. I also considered how much major league value each organization is likely to produce over the next few years; Boston had a number of very promising, high-upside prospects in short-season leagues this past year, but even in a best-case scenario, that group of players will not produce any major league value before 2012. So a system with high-impact prospects who are relatively close to the majors ranks high, even if the system lacks depth in second- and third-tier prospects.
1. Texas Rangers: The Rangers have far and away the best farm system in the game right now, with impact prospects, lots of depth (particularly in very young pitching) and plenty of prospects close enough to the majors to help the big league club in 2009 and 2010.
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What is most impressive about the restocking of Texas' farm system is that the additions have come from across the board. Texas has been one of the most aggressive bidders on talent in the international market, landing Martin Perez, Wilmer Font, Wilfredo Boscan and Esdras Abreu. The Rangers also have integrated their international scouting with the rest of their baseball operations -- for most teams, it's still a separate fiefdom -- and have acquired several top international prospects in trades a year or so after missing out on them as free agents, including Neftali Feliz, Engel Beltre and Carlos Melo. Having one person, A.J. Preller, heavily involved in both international and pro scouting has made this integration easier, and the Rangers also use adviser Don Welke heavily in both areas. In addition, they have been aggressive in the draft under scouting director Ron Hopkins, signing several players who fell due to bonus demands and giving them above-slot bonuses that were appropriate to the players' talents, including Justin Smoak and Robbie Ross in 2008 and Julio Borbon and Neil Ramirez in 2007. And the Rangers have worked the trade market to add prospects, cashing in Mark Teixeira for a huge package that included Feliz and Elvis Andrus, flipping Kenny Lofton for Max Ramirez and more recently dealing Gerald Laird for Melo and Guillermo Moscoso.
GM Jon Daniels has implemented a clear and consistent philosophy for baseball operations, centered on building pitching depth with an emphasis on upside, a tacit acknowledgment that pitching in Arlington requires better stuff or a stronger constitution than pitching in Seattle or Oakland. The integration across departments -- amateur scouting, pro scouting, international scouting and player development -- is still unusual in baseball, although the success of similar efforts in Boston and Tampa Bay is causing more teams to reevaluate their organizational structures.
Whether this translates into major league success for Texas largely will come down to the young pitching: Can these pitchers succeed in the Rangers' ballpark, and can they stay healthy? If so, the wave of arms coming through Texas over the next five years will give the Rangers the best chance in their history to advance beyond the first round of the playoffs.
2. Tampa Bay Rays: They just keep churning out the prospects, although they'll have a new challenge in 2009: no draft picks in the top 10 -- or even 20. Success with high school pitchers taken after the first round has been a big part of their system's depth, including another wave of kids who spent 2008 in short-season ball. However, their recent efforts in Latin America have yet to yield any significant prospects.
3. Oakland Athletics
4. Atlanta Braves
5. Cleveland Indians
6. St. Louis Cardinals: St. Louis' system features three potential star prospects followed by a stack of average or slightly above-average prospects, giving the Cardinals both impact and good depth. Their efforts in the Dominican Republic are just starting to bear fruit.
7. Boston Red Sox
8. Florida Marlins
9. San Francisco Giants
10. Baltimore Orioles
11. Philadelphia Phillies
12. Kansas City Royals
13. Milwaukee Brewers: Very good depth without much star potential beyond Jeremy Jeffress, who has an electric arm but a number of developmental hurdles still ahead of him. The trade for CC Sabathia did hurt their depth, although Matt LaPorta was blocked behind Prince Fielder in Milwaukee. New amateur scouting director Bruce Seid has big shoes to fill after Jack Zduriencik left to become Seattle's GM.
14. Seattle Mariners
15. New York Yankees
16. Colorado Rockies
17. New York Mets
18. Toronto Blue Jays
19. San Diego Padres
20. Los Angeles Dodgers: They have hit a lull after years of graduating very good players to the big leagues, including Clayton Kershaw in 2008. Their top pick in 2007, Chris Withrow, now has thrown 13 innings in two years due to elbow trouble and had a little bit of "The Thing" this past summer, walking six in his four innings of actual game work. <b>(For Gad)</b>
21. Minnesota Twins
22. Pittsburgh Pirates: Improving, and, no, the two kids from India don't really count. Jose Tabata's return to form, if it's real, gives the Pirates three potential impact guys (Andrew McCutchen and Pedro Alvarez are the other two), but they're extremely light on pitching. Their willingness to spend money in the draft is a welcome change from the past 15 years of toeing the line.
23. Chicago White Sox: In the bottom five before this winter's trades and the signing of Dayan Viciedo; although I wasn't sure how much weight to give the Cuban third baseman in the rankings, I settled on 300 pounds. A very questionable draft this year after Gordon Beckham won't do much to boost their system.
24. Arizona Diamondbacks
25. Los Angeles Angels
26. Cincinnati Reds: It's hard to graduate Joey Votto, Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto from your system in one year and not drop toward the bottom of these rankings. The poor first full season from 2007 first-rounder Devin Mesoraco doesn't help.
<b>27. Chicago Cubs: Josh Vitters and a few hard-throwing relievers, and that's about it. The Cubs had some really atrocious drafts in the mid-2000s -- it's a fair bet that the 2005 draft class will fail to produce a big leauger other than Donald Veal, who was lost in the Rule 5 draft last month and has done absolutely nothing to earn a big league shot this April.</b>
28. Detroit Tigers
29. Washington Nationals
30. Houston Astros<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is according to Keith Law, and it is only 1 persons opinion, but it kind of proves that our farm system is very mediocre at best.
I only kept the paragraphs about the teams in our division plus the Dodgers for Gad and the top 2 in baseball.
Ranking the Farms - Dirk - 01-22-2009
Is it maybe time to start thinking about firing someone as far as the farm system is concerned?
Ranking the Farms - PcB - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12967:date=Jan 22 2009, 07:51 AM:name=Dirk)-->QUOTE (Dirk @ Jan 22 2009, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Is it maybe time to start thinking about firing someone as far as the farm system is concerned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kinda what I was getting at yesterday, but I got railroaded.
Since we only draft pitchers, it's ok that the only hitter we've produced is Soto. The last star pitcher we've brought up is Marmol and the last one before that is Z.
Ranking the Farms - Jody - 01-22-2009
Shouldn't this be Cigar's job?
Ranking the Farms - PcB - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12969:date=Jan 22 2009, 07:54 AM:name=Jody)-->QUOTE (Jody @ Jan 22 2009, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Shouldn't this be Cigar's job?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img]
Ranking the Farms - ColoradoCub - 01-22-2009
I wouldn't mind reading the whole thing. Got a link?
Ranking the Farms - PcB - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12971:date=Jan 22 2009, 07:55 AM:name=ColoradoCub)-->QUOTE (ColoradoCub @ Jan 22 2009, 07:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->I wouldn't mind reading the whole thing. Got a link?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shit. Sorry.
It's on ESPN insider. If you want my PW just PM me.
Ranking the Farm
Ranking the Farms - BT - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12968:date=Jan 22 2009, 07:53 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 22 2009, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12967:date=Jan 22 2009, 07:51 AM:name=Dirk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dirk @ Jan 22 2009, 07:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Is it maybe time to start thinking about firing someone as far as the farm system is concerned?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's kinda what I was getting at yesterday, but I got railroaded.
Since we only draft pitchers, it's ok that the only hitter we've produced is Soto. The last star pitcher we've brought up is Marmol and the last one before that is Z.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow. A lot of crap to wade through there PCB.
-I specifically said our system is bad right now. I'm not sure anyone disagreed with that. I said our system HAS BEEN productive.
-No one said it's "ok" that the only hitter we've produced is Soto. Firstly because it also produced Theriot. Secondly I said it was bullshit to say the system sucked because you guys decided we aren't going to count pitchers.
- How many "star" pitchers is a system supposed to produce every year, exactly? How many teams do you think would be OK with producing "only" Zambrano and Marmol?
-And no one "railroaded" you about anything. They disagreed.
Lastly, if it's your opinion that someone should be fired, fine, but it ALREADY HAPPENED. The guy responsible for the terrible mid 2000 drafts, specifically the 2005 draft, was John Stockstill. He's gone. Tim Wilken is now the scouting director. Now if you think he should be fired because guys he drafted 2 years ago haven't emerged as superstars yet, that's your prerogative (and I will be more than happy to admit his choice of Colvin looks shaky), but maybe we could give him some time before showing him the door?
Ranking the Farms - veryzer - 01-22-2009
nobody railroaded you dude. we just pointed out that the farm system has produced more than you gave it credit for. nothing you just posted changes the fact that the cubs have produced zambrano, wood, prior, marshall, marmol, samardjzia, willis, gallagher, nolasco, theriot, soto and brought us lee, ramirez, and harden.
Ranking the Farms - Brock - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Secondly I said it was bullshit to say the system sucked because you guys decided we aren't going to count pitchers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one, not me, not PcB, nor anyone else ever said such a thing.
Ranking the Farms - ruby23 - 01-22-2009
Of course our farm system is bad right now, all of the good players we've produced in the past 5 years are either on our own roster or have been shipped off in deals to get other players. If we were to stick Marmol, Shark, Soto back in AAA and had the guys we dealt for Harden, Pierre, and Gregg back, we'd have a top 10 farm system. The idea of the farm system is make your MLB team better, we're doing fine job at that and have been for decade.
Ranking the Farms - PcB - 01-22-2009
Railroaded might be to strong a word, but it's early and I don't feel like thinking.
I don't see how it can even be argued that we have one of the worst systems in baseball right now, and that's my whole point and that was my whole point yesterday.
The fact that we have produced some decent prospects and Z, Marmol, and whoever else is fine, but there is nobody even on the horizon (other then Vitters) of being able to be a legitimate star in our system. Pitcher or Hitter. That's a problem.
Ranking the Farms - BT - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12979:date=Jan 22 2009, 08:46 AM:name=Brock)-->QUOTE (Brock @ Jan 22 2009, 08:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Secondly I said it was bullshit to say the system sucked because you guys decided we aren't going to count pitchers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one, not me, not PcB, nor anyone else ever said such a thing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Did you specifically say those words? No. But your argument strongly implied it. You argued our system was a failure. When I pointed out we have developed a number of pitchers, your response was that we haven't developed any hitters (other than the first catcher to start an all star game as a rookie). It's logical to then assume that if we have developed good pitchers, AND you still think that our minor league system is a failure, then the quality of the pitchers we have developed do not change your opinion of our system.
For the record, there is a difference between arguing that our system has been successful, as I believe it has, and arguing that it is good right now, which I don't believe it is.
Ranking the Farms - PcB - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12985:date=Jan 22 2009, 08:57 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jan 22 2009, 08:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=12979:date=Jan 22 2009, 08:46 AM:name=Brock)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brock @ Jan 22 2009, 08:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->Secondly I said it was bullshit to say the system sucked because you guys decided we aren't going to count pitchers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one, not me, not PcB, nor anyone else ever said such a thing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For the record, there is a difference between arguing that our system has been successful, as I believe it has, and arguing that it is good right now, which I don't believe it is.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And that's why you and I are arguing 2 different things.
Ranking the Farms - BT - 01-22-2009
<!--quoteo(post=12982:date=Jan 22 2009, 08:54 AM:name=PcB)-->QUOTE (PcB @ Jan 22 2009, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Railroaded might be to strong a word, but it's early and I don't feel like thinking.
I don't see how it can even be argued that we have one of the worst systems in baseball right now, and that's my whole point and that was my whole point yesterday.
The fact that we have produced some decent prospects and Z, Marmol, and whoever else is fine, but there is nobody even on the horizon (other then Vitters) of being able to be a legitimate star in our system. Pitcher or Hitter. That's a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Putting aside the fact as to whether or not it can be argued that we have one of the worst systems in baseball right now, as I just said, arguing that our system is bad right now, and arguing that our system has been a failure are two COMPLETELY different arguments.
For instance take the Tigers last offseason. They had a pretty good system. They then traded pretty much everyone for Cabrera and Willis. So leaving 2007 they had a good system. Starting 2008, their farm system was one of the worst in the majors. The fact that they had a bad system starting in 2008 wasn't a result of failures though. The system had done EXACTLY what they wanted it to do. It supplied them with quality major leaguers.