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+--- Thread: Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal (/thread-6137.html)
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - kbwsb - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->What I don't understand about all of this is why Coldneck isn't the Cubs GM. He obviously operates at a higher mental capacity compared to Hendry.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So does Joey from "Friends."
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Butcher - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo(post=70091:date=Nov 24 2009, 06:20 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 06:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->You make a reasonable point that none of us are really "in the know" when it comes to the behind the scenes dealings of a GM. However, I think the fact that there are many examples of JH offering too much for too long that trumps the argument. Fact is, JH frequently gives to much and too many and it has hurt the team's financial flexibility.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure what exact argument you are making here. Are you saying that Hendry has paid too much for free agents during his tenure? OK, I totally agree with that. However that is the nature of free agency. FA's are almost always paid too much. By every GM out there. Not just Hendry. Furthermore, when Hendry does NOT pay too much for a Free Agent, as was the case with Lilly, ARam, and ironically enough Marquis, he doesn't get any credit.
If you are arguing not that Hendry has made mistakes, but has signed free agents (regardless of how good or bad they are) to UNNECESSARILY large contracts, contracts that are bigger than they need to be because there is no competition, I will continue to tell you that you most likely have no clue what the competition was.
Those are 2 entirely separate arguments. In can be pretty well concluded that Bradley was a bad signing. It cannot in any way shape or form be concluded that it was an unnecessarily large contract due to a lack of other bidders, because we don't have any idea who the other bidders were, or what their offers consisted of.
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One of the problems with Hendry is that he pays too much (in dollars and years) for replacement-level players. Most GMs understand the concept that you don't pay a Neifi Perez/Aaron Miles/Glendon Rusch type of player millions of dollars a year for multiple years when you can usually get the same type of player for league minimum out of your farm system or for extremely cheap off the FA scrap heap. That's a fault of Hendry's that drives me bananas -- and he continues to make the same mistake.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->It cannot in any way shape or form be concluded that it was an unnecessarily large contract due to a lack of other bidders, because we don't have any idea who the other bidders were, or what their offers consisted of.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't look at Bradley's injury history and conclude that most GMs wouldn't be willing to give out a multi-season contract to a guy like that? Throw in his total insanity, and I don't think the conclusion is that crazy. This doesn't require research. This doesn't require a formal survey of all GMs in baseball. All this requires is a little common sense.
Do we KNOW, for certain that there weren't other 3-year deals out there? No -- we'll never know that kind of inside information. But I'm going to assume (again, based on Milty's history), that there weren't a whole lot of multi-year offers on the table for him and that Jim fucked up.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - kbwsb - 11-24-2009
Let's focus on the first part of Butch's argument, because it's <b>airtight</b>
(the second part, though reasonable, is speculative).
Please add Grabow to the list (Neifi Perez/Aaron Miles/Glendon Rusch).
There are many more.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - BT - 11-24-2009
I'm not saying you need to survey every GM. I'm asking you to use common sense. Do you think Hendry is so stupid, he doesn't know the market as well as a bunch of guys on the Cubs message board? Or do you think he knows the market, but decided to throw away an extra 10-15 million dollars? One of those 2 things has to be true for your argument to be true.
I'd also ask, who do you guys think is an example of a GM that doesn't make those types of FA mistakes?
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Coldneck - 11-24-2009
BT, this fucking team is so hamstrung for the next 3 years because of stupid fucking moves made by Hendry. Poor salary structures and signing ass clowns like Bradley and Soriano for too much and too long are the reason why. That's my opinion and you're not going to change it. Hendry blows and you seem to be blowing him.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Butcher - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Do you think Hendry is so stupid, he doesn't know the market as well as a bunch of guys on the Cubs message board? Or do you think he knows the market, but decided to throw away an extra 10-15 million dollars? One of those 2 things has to be true for your argument to be true.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not necessarily. There's a third thing that could be true. In fact, there are many other things that could be true for my argument to be true. It doesn't have to be those 2 things.
One of those things, in my opinion, is that Hendry tends to set his sights on the player he wants, lowers his head, and charges, full-speed ahead and loses sight of the bigger picture. I'm sure he he has a lot of things on the skillet at once, and wants to seal the deal and move forward. He can get overly aggressive sometimes. Is that stupid? Maybe.
That's how I explain it. I don't think Hendry is an idiot -- but he isn't perfect, and he is prone to these kind of errors.
Hendry has done some good things for this team. There's no denying that. But he also has some irritating flaws. Surely you don't think Hendry *never* makes a mistake?
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - BT - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo(post=70118:date=Nov 24 2009, 07:56 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Nov 24 2009, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->BT, this fucking team is so hamstrung for the next 3 years because of stupid fucking moves made by Hendry. Poor salary structures and signing ass clowns like Bradley and Soriano for too much and too long are the reason why. That's my opinion and you're not going to change it. Hendry blows and you seem to be blowing him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got an answer for that Coldneck, but I'm trying to be less "hostile". I'll simply say that repeatedly claiming that Hendry is not a fucking moron is not the same thing as blowing him.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Coldneck - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo(post=70121:date=Nov 24 2009, 09:12 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70118:date=Nov 24 2009, 07:56 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Nov 24 2009, 07:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->BT, this fucking team is so hamstrung for the next 3 years because of stupid fucking moves made by Hendry. Poor salary structures and signing ass clowns like Bradley and Soriano for too much and too long are the reason why. That's my opinion and you're not going to change it. Hendry blows and you seem to be blowing him.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got an answer for that Coldneck, but I'm trying to be less "hostile". I'll simply say that repeatedly claiming that Hendry is not a fucking moron is not the same thing as blowing him.
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I don't think he's a moron either. I just think he's a pretty shitty GM. His results are pretty pathetic considering he operates with a top 5 payroll in a weak NL division.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - BT - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->One of those things, in my opinion, is that Hendry tends to set his sights on the player he wants, lowers his head, and charges, full-speed ahead and loses sight of the bigger picture. I'm sure he he has a lot of things on the skillet at once, and wants to seal the deal and move forward. He can get overly aggressive sometimes. Is that stupid? Maybe.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I"ll fully admit that this is possible. I think it's possible after losing out on Furcal, he might be more aggressive. However it would not account for mistakes as big as signing a guy to a 30 million dollar deal when he could have had him for 12. Which is what you claimed, and I objected to. If you want to say that Hendry might have had Bradley for 3/25, but instead went 3/30, I won't argue. But that completely changes the substance of your complaint. One argument is that he overpaid. The other argument is that he is fucking insane or fucking stupid, and nearly tripled the nearest offer.
Furthermore, NONE of what you have written substantially changes my initial argument. How can you possibly complain about Hendry's offers in comparison to the rest of the market, when you can't possibly know what the rest of the market was offering?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Surely you don't think Hendry *never* makes a mistake?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to dignify that with a response. Last time I did, apparently my snark pissed you off.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Butcher - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo(post=70123:date=Nov 24 2009, 03:16 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->One of those things, in my opinion, is that Hendry tends to set his sights on the player he wants, lowers his head, and charges, full-speed ahead and loses sight of the bigger picture. I'm sure he he has a lot of things on the skillet at once, and wants to seal the deal and move forward. He can get overly aggressive sometimes. Is that stupid? Maybe.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I"ll fully admit that this is possible. I think it's possible after losing out on Furcal, he might be more aggressive. However it would not account for mistakes as big as signing a guy to a 30 million dollar deal when he could have had him for 12. Which is what you claimed, and I objected to. If you want to say that Hendry might have had Bradley for 3/25, but instead went 3/30, I won't argue. But that completely changes the substance of your complaint. One argument is that he overpaid. The other argument is that he is fucking insane or fucking stupid, and nearly tripled the nearest offer.
Furthermore, NONE of what you have written substantially changes my initial argument. How can you possibly complain about Hendry's offers in comparison to the rest of the market, when you can't possibly know what the rest of the market was offering?
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Surely you don't think Hendry *never* makes a mistake?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not going to dignify that with a response. Last time I did, apparently my snark pissed you off.
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The one offer we know of was from the Rays -- for much less money and one less season. The other evidence I'm using to base my stance on is somewhat speculative -- I'll freely admit that.
I think I've said several times within this thread that the Bradley deal doesn't even piss me off that much and I was more or less OK with it when it went down. I put Bradley's deal into the Grabow argument as one example of Hendry offering too much money with contracts that are too long, and somehow this discussion has become more about Bradley than Grabow.
You want me to concede on Bradley? Fine. It was a wonderful deal. You win.
He still fucked up with Grabow, in a very similar way that he fucked up with other mid-to low-level talent in the past.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - BT - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->You want me to concede on Bradley? Fine. It was a wonderful deal. You win.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did you suddenly become the guy who argues points no one has made?
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Scarey - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo(post=70087:date=Nov 24 2009, 07:04 AM:name=Coldneck)-->QUOTE (Coldneck @ Nov 24 2009, 07:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70079:date=Nov 24 2009, 06:40 AM:name=Scarey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Scarey @ Nov 24 2009, 06:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70076:date=Nov 24 2009, 06:23 AM:name=Coldneck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Coldneck @ Nov 24 2009, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70062:date=Nov 24 2009, 04:17 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 04:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70059:date=Nov 24 2009, 03:12 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Nov 24 2009, 03:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70058:date=Nov 24 2009, 03:07 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 03:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=70053:date=Nov 24 2009, 02:40 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Nov 24 2009, 02:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->That's my biggest beef too. Soriano should have gotten 5-6 years max, and Bradley 1-2 years. Hendry seems to love tacking on an extra 2-3 years (in the case of guys like Miles and Blanco 1 year) to otherwise reasonable contracts. I don't even take issue with the amount we pay our players per annum, but it's the contract lengths that are head scratchers.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I remember correctly, either the angels or Astros were offering 7 years as well. That is why Hendry bumped it up by a year. But again, none of us KNOWS what happened.
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That is true. I just remember a lot of speculation revolved around most teams offering 5-6 years. We'll never know for sure though.
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The only reason Im fairly confident those offers were there was the fact that Hendry actually upped his offer from 7 years to 8 years. Even if you despise Hendry, you'd have to admit he would at least need SOME reason to do that.
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You make a reasonable point that none of us are really "in the know" when it comes to the behind the scenes dealings of a GM. However, I think the fact that there are many examples of JH offering too much for too long that trumps the argument. Fact is, JH frequently gives to much and too many and it has hurt the team's financial flexibility.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What I don't understand about all of this is why Coldneck isn't the Cubs GM. He obviously operates at a higher mental capacity compared to Hendry.
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Really! You don't think I am qualified to critique the GMs job performance? That's what fans do. You don't have to agree with it. Just don't be all douchey in the process.
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Ok, I don't think you got my point and it looks like that would be my fault.
I'm not in any way saying you aren't qualified to critique a GMs job performance. I do it, I'm pissed as hell about the Grabow signing. However, you keep suggesting that Hendry gives too much money to free agents as if there's no reason for it.
Unfortunately, that's just how free agency works. Look at Carlos Silva, Eric Byrnes, Barry Zito, Gil Meche, Derek Lowe, etc. If you want to land your guy, you gotta pay out the nose. And it's this reason that we MUST build our farm system consistently (see, I'm trying to make peace ending on a subject we agree on).
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Scarey - 11-24-2009
And to add to that, there is a reason that the free agent market dictates that you over pay for your man. BT is making that point in this thread. To sign a free agent over other teams, you have to pay more than the other teams.
Despite the economic condition of this country, free agents still have an advantage because owners are still making a crap load of money.
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Butcher - 11-24-2009
<!--quoteo(post=70128:date=Nov 24 2009, 03:46 PM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Nov 24 2009, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <!--quotec-->You want me to concede on Bradley? Fine. It was a wonderful deal. You win.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
When did you suddenly become the guy who argues points no one has made?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I won't answer that until you provide a link to the appropriate logical fallacy on Wikipedia.
Edit: I debated whether or not to include a winking smiley along with this response...
Cubs and Grabow discussing multi-year deal - Scarey - 11-24-2009
By the way cold, my comment had nothing to do with your personal mental capacity. I apologize if you took it that way. My comment was meant to point out that despite a great wealth of knowledge of the game of baseball, you're not a GM and Hendry is... and I think there's a reason for that. No offense.