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+--- Thread: Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? (/thread-7026.html)
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Clapp - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)-->QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Destined - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42207:date=Jun 4 2009, 10:46 PM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 4 2009, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly. Thankfully for the Mets though, the Pirates won't be playing in October.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - BT - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42207:date=Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you are using last night's 100-75 game in which Kobe scored 40 points, to illustrate that point?
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - rok - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42222:date=Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42207:date=Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you are using last night's 100-75 game in which Kobe scored 40 points, to illustrate that point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless he averages those numbers from last night throughout the entire playoffs, I don't see that there is a larger point.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Butcher - 06-05-2009
Kobe Bryant's Free Throw percentages (career):
Regular season -- .840
Playoffs -- .812
Nobody is guarding you at the free throw line, so it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. It's just you, the crowd, and your thoughts. Seems as if Kobe had a magical "clutchiness" trait, certainly it would kick in at the free throw line during the playoffs.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - rok - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42230:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kobe Bryant's Free Throw percentages (career):
Regular season -- .840
Playoffs -- .812
Nobody is guarding you at the free throw line, so it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. It's just you, the crowd, and your thoughts. Seems as if Kobe had a magical "clutchiness" trait, certainly it would kick in at the free throw line during the playoffs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but isn't the pressure just a tad higher in the playoffs, even if you're at the FT line? I'm kind of all over the place on this issue, but it's still clear to me that some players play better than others under pressure. What is the avg FT% for all players during the playoffs? I'd like to see relative stats. I also think that focusing on the elite players to prove/disprove "clutchness" is a waste of time because they're usually good regardless. I made a statement earlier in this thread which everyone ignored. Are situational stats simply meaningless? I'm not talking about the elites, but what about those average to above average players who DO perform in certain situations or environments (with RISP for example) at a higher level than their aggregate career averages? I think this can't be overlooked.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Butcher - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Yeah, but isn't the pressure just a tad higher in the playoffs, even if you're at the FT line?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's precisely the point. Clapp brought up Kobe as a guy who performs better under pressure and raises the level of his game in those situations.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->I made a statement earlier in this thread which everyone ignored. Are situational stats simply meaningless? I'm not talking about the elites, but what about those average to above average players who DO perform in certain situations or environments (with RISP for example) at a higher level than their aggregate career averages? I think this can't be overlooked.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I actually tried to address this earlier, but not directly.
<!--quoteo-->QUOTE <!--quotec-->Pick any five players at random, and check out their splits for the last few seasons. You'll find that their statistics from year to year in the various clutch situations (RISP, late-inning pressure, September) can vary widely, with no rhyme or reason to the splits. <i>But over a large enough sample, players will hit in given situations pretty much as they do overall. </i><!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there's a specific player (or players) that you feel fit this description (average to above average players who DO perform in certain situations or environments (with RISP for example) at a higher level than their aggregate career averages), lets examine those players. I can almost guarantee that their "clutch" stats will vary pretty widely from season to season, but over a large enough sample size, they will come pretty close to their overall numbers.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - rok - 06-05-2009
Fair enough. I'll see if I can come up with some names.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - BT - 06-05-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42228:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:15 AM:name=rok)-->QUOTE (rok @ Jun 5 2009, 09:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42222:date=Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42207:date=Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you are using last night's 100-75 game in which Kobe scored 40 points, to illustrate that point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless he averages those numbers from last night throughout the entire playoffs, I don't see that there is a larger point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After butch pointed out his playoff numbers don't vary from his overall numbers, Clapp asked "how did he look last night". Then later, he also said that numbers in playoffs are down because you play much tougher teams. I think last night's game is a bad example of both of these points. Kobe's numbers were UP over regular season stats, AND Orlando played about as badly as you would expect Minnesota or Oklahoma City to play.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Clapp - 06-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42257:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:45 AM:name=BT)-->QUOTE (BT @ Jun 5 2009, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42228:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:15 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jun 5 2009, 09:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42222:date=Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42207:date=Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you are using last night's 100-75 game in which Kobe scored 40 points, to illustrate that point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless he averages those numbers from last night throughout the entire playoffs, I don't see that there is a larger point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After butch pointed out his playoff numbers don't vary from his overall numbers, Clapp asked "how did he look last night". Then later, he also said that numbers in playoffs are down because you play much tougher teams. I think last night's game is a bad example of both of these points. Kobe's numbers were UP over regular season stats, AND Orlando played about as badly as you would expect Minnesota or Oklahoma City to play.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were pointing out Kobe's playoff stats were worse over his career in comparison to his regular season, I'm well aware he's been better this year. Last night he looked like he was from another planet and made some absolutely insane shots. The Magic choked, Kobe stepped up. Some guys fade, some play as good or better. That's the whole point.
And Butch, Kobe's shooting 90.1% in these playoffs, including 26 of 27 the last 3 crucial games. He's missed more than 1 free throw only twice in 19 playoff games. As I said, he's a completely different player mentally now than he was earlier in his career.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - bz - 06-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42230:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kobe Bryant's Free Throw percentages (career):
Regular season -- .840
Playoffs -- .812
Nobody is guarding you at the free throw line, so it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. It's just you, the crowd, and your thoughts. Seems as if Kobe had a magical "clutchiness" trait, certainly it would kick in at the free throw line during the playoffs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are the only person who is labeling it as a magical trait. No one else is in this thread. The definition you are creating for us is not the same as the one we are using.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Butcher - 06-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42469:date=Jun 6 2009, 12:10 PM:name=bz)-->QUOTE (bz @ Jun 6 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42230:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kobe Bryant's Free Throw percentages (career):
Regular season -- .840
Playoffs -- .812
Nobody is guarding you at the free throw line, so it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. It's just you, the crowd, and your thoughts. Seems as if Kobe had a magical "clutchiness" trait, certainly it would kick in at the free throw line during the playoffs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are the only person who is labeling it as a magical trait. No one else is in this thread. The definition you are creating for us is not the same as the one we are using.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine that you (or anyone else in the thread) aren't. But plenty of people think of "clutch" in that way.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - Butcher - 06-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42425:date=Jun 6 2009, 03:07 AM:name=Clapp)-->QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 6 2009, 03:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42257:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:45 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 5 2009, 09:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42228:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:15 AM:name=rok)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rok @ Jun 5 2009, 09:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42222:date=Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM:name=BT)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BT @ Jun 5 2009, 08:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42207:date=Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM:name=Clapp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clapp @ Jun 5 2009, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42205:date=Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM:name=Destined)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Destined @ Jun 4 2009, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->He's playing against the best teams. I mean come on, Kobe can't rape all the teams in playoffs, because they actually have talent and the best defenders. You guys expect Adrian Petersen to average more yards in the playoffs than in the regular season? Nope. Clutchness in hockey is way more common. i.e Malkin & Crosby.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Right. You don't get to face the Minnesota Timberwolves and Oklahoma City Thunder in the playoffs, and the teams you are facing are even more prepared and focused to try to stop you.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and you are using last night's 100-75 game in which Kobe scored 40 points, to illustrate that point?
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless he averages those numbers from last night throughout the entire playoffs, I don't see that there is a larger point.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After butch pointed out his playoff numbers don't vary from his overall numbers, Clapp asked "how did he look last night". Then later, he also said that numbers in playoffs are down because you play much tougher teams. I think last night's game is a bad example of both of these points. Kobe's numbers were UP over regular season stats, AND Orlando played about as badly as you would expect Minnesota or Oklahoma City to play.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They were pointing out Kobe's playoff stats were worse over his career in comparison to his regular season, I'm well aware he's been better this year. Last night he looked like he was from another planet and made some absolutely insane shots. The Magic choked, Kobe stepped up. Some guys fade, some play as good or better. That's the whole point.
And Butch, Kobe's shooting 90.1% in these playoffs, including 26 of 27 the last 3 crucial games. He's missed more than 1 free throw only twice in 19 playoff games. As I said, he's a completely different player mentally now than he was earlier in his career.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And his next playoff series, he might be below his career numbers. It will all even out if measured in a long enough timeline. It always has and it always will.
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - bz - 06-06-2009
<!--quoteo(post=42472:date=Jun 6 2009, 12:30 PM:name=Butcher)-->QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 6 2009, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42469:date=Jun 6 2009, 12:10 PM:name=bz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bz @ Jun 6 2009, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=42230:date=Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM:name=Butcher)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Butcher @ Jun 5 2009, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><!--quotec-->Kobe Bryant's Free Throw percentages (career):
Regular season -- .840
Playoffs -- .812
Nobody is guarding you at the free throw line, so it doesn't really matter who the opponent is. It's just you, the crowd, and your thoughts. Seems as if Kobe had a magical "clutchiness" trait, certainly it would kick in at the free throw line during the playoffs.<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are the only person who is labeling it as a magical trait. No one else is in this thread. The definition you are creating for us is not the same as the one we are using.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fine that you (or anyone else in the thread) aren't. But plenty of people think of "clutch" in that way.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What's the point of trying to disprove people you aren't talking to?
Is Energy/Chemistry Worth a Damn? - veryzer - 06-06-2009
after some thought, i don't think i buy "clutch." good players play good and sometimes bad players play good and i don't think the situations change the performancxe of said players.
i could be wrong about "clutch" but i'm convinced "chemistry" doesn't exsist. there have been teams that hated each other and still won championships and there have been teams full of BFFs that haven't won shit.